Re: [Pharo-project] Why do we use Pharo? a.k.a. rethinking Pharo marketing
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ?? Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
That does always seem to be the case. But "boring" is our problem, assuming the thing works as advertised, others might bore themselves to success of which we can only dream - we should be careful about passing judgments. Scalable is a needed element, and I am not at all convinced that many "enterprise" systems deliver on this point any more than we could (can?) w/ load balancing. Inelegant is probably a key feature of most "enterprise" *code* that gets copy/pasted/tweaked vs. truly engineered for reuse. How's that? Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker@inria.fr] Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:32 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Why do we use Pharo? a.k.a. rethinking Pharo marketing On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ?? Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Marcus Denker wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Boring ==> other people don't want to do it ==> that is where the money is. If Smalltalk can be less boring than other platforms, then you are a ahead. Complicated ==> other people can't do it ==> that is where the money is. If Smalltalk can do complicated a bit easier than other platforms, then you are ahead. Fun is what you do for free. Its not really as bad as this - but it is the essence of the spectrum.
Am 21.02.2012 09:31 schrieb "Ben Coman" <btc@openinworld.com>:
Boring ==> other people don't want to do it ==> that is where the money is. If Smalltalk can be less boring than other platforms, then you are a ahead. Complicated ==> other people can't do it ==> that is where the money is. If Smalltalk can do complicated a bit easier than other platforms, then you are ahead. Fun is what you do for free.
Its not really as bad as this - but it is the essence of the spectrum.
Not quite. There is nothing, that i can't do with Android (from navigation to full featured Desktop/Tablet apps with very matured RAD tools), but plenty of things, i can't do with Smalltalk/Pharo. Missing standards, touch libs....a concept ... If these topics are not adressed, even the most successful "customer" will soon have to change to JavaScript or Java, Objective-C, C++ ... Touch is everywhere soon, now. regards, Guido Stepken
Am 21.02.2012 um 08:32 schrieb Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr>:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
No, that's what java made out of it. Norbert
On 02/21/2012 08:32 AM, Marcus Denker wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
I agree, I don't think the people we would want to attract really appreciate those attributes. Sorry for longish post - but let me ramble on this (though I am not sure how this thread has evolved - Stephane initially asked for input): Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development. Yes, one can make a huge list of other attributes - but it all boils down to that *for me*. For example, one could say "no, it is also about quality of code through good OO design" - but if you think about it, quality of design gives *speed*. The quality in itself doesn't give me "value" (well, I am being black-and-white here), but the speed that a good quality codebase gives me (in adapting to change etc) is true hard value. That speed makes programming fun. That speed impresses people. That speed is a true distinguishing feature. And of course, the speed comes as a product of many factors of which some are unique (but not all of them are): language-brevity * language-modeling-capability * tools * dynamic-typing * instant-compilation * app-always-running = awesome speed! ...and if we break out tools from the above equation: tools = full-reflection * written-all-in-itself * everyone-can-contribute-no-need-for-plugin-system-like-eclipse * crossplatform-so-everyone-can-contribute-regardless-of-OS So if I would "pitch" Pharo to other developers, it would be about the extravagant speed of development. Sure, cross platform and good performance through Cog is nice, but for me and many other web devs (which perhaps contitutes 90% of the audience) it would be Linux anyway and the VM speed is not a real problem. But as I said, cross-platform is important for us to be able to work together on "common ground" improving the environment. Just some food for thought. regards, Göran
Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development.
I agree 100% with Göran. I want my programming environment to be able to translate my ideas into code as rapidly as possible. Smalltalk is the best environment I've found for that. "Programming at the speed of thought" I've been very inspired by the following talk about the importance of the immediacy of results: http://vimeo.com/36579366
On Feb 21, 2012, at 10:56 AM, Nick Ager wrote:
Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development.
I agree 100% with Göran.
I want my programming environment to be able to translate my ideas into code as rapidly as possible. Smalltalk is the best environment I've found for that.
"Programming at the speed of thought"
I love that. Thanks for the idea.
I've been very inspired by the following talk about the importance of the immediacy of results:
Hi, I like this metaphor, too, because it matches precisely the scenarios in which I use Pharo. Over the past 2 years I got to use Moose (and Pharo) to support the practice of software assessment in a new way: http://humane-assessment.com Essentially, it boils down to crafting custom analysis tools fast to help people make decisions regarding a software system (or data). It is new way because when the cost of a dedicated tool is measured in minutes or hours (not in day or months), the economics change dramatically. It even gets to be so fun that engineers throw questions at the system in the lunch break just for the sport of it. The interesting thing is that the systems in question are usually not Smalltalk, but involve Java, C/C++, SQL, XML or other exotic languages. The analyses can be captured in automatic reports produced regularly by a continuous integration server, or dedicated tools used for specific scenarios (like monitoring performance, or visualizing funky configurations). In these scenarios, the key ingredient is speed, and the speed of developing in Smalltalk combined with the Moose design is simply unmatched in that world. All in all, I get to sit in the middle of the team, program Smalltalk and have the system with the strange syntax regarded with respect. And in the end, I get engineers to learn Smalltalk because they (and their companies) see a significant benefit in doing so. This is possible due to Pharo & Moose and all the activity around them. Cheers, Doru On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 10:56 AM, Nick Ager wrote:
Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development.
I agree 100% with Göran.
I want my programming environment to be able to translate my ideas into code as rapidly as possible. Smalltalk is the best environment I've found for that.
"Programming at the speed of thought"
I love that. Thanks for the idea.
I've been very inspired by the following talk about the importance of the immediacy of results:
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On 21 Feb 2012, at 09:52, Göran Krampe wrote:
Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development.
Yes, one can make a huge list of other attributes - but it all boils down to that *for me*. For example, one could say "no, it is also about quality of code through good OO design" - but if you think about it, quality of design gives *speed*. The quality in itself doesn't give me "value" (well, I am being black-and-white here), but the speed that a good quality codebase gives me (in adapting to change etc) is true hard value. That speed makes programming fun. That speed impresses people. That speed is a true distinguishing feature.
And of course, the speed comes as a product of many factors of which some are unique (but not all of them are):
language-brevity * language-modeling-capability * tools * dynamic-typing * instant-compilation * app-always-running = awesome speed!
...and if we break out tools from the above equation:
tools = full-reflection * written-all-in-itself * everyone-can-contribute-no-need-for-plugin-system-like-eclipse * crossplatform-so-everyone-can-contribute-regardless-of-OS
So if I would "pitch" Pharo to other developers, it would be about the extravagant speed of development. Sure, cross platform and good performance through Cog is nice, but for me and many other web devs (which perhaps contitutes 90% of the audience) it would be Linux anyway and the VM speed is not a real problem. But as I said, cross-platform is important for us to be able to work together on "common ground" improving the environment.
Yes, well written and so true (for me in any case). Once you are used to Smalltalk it is so hard to go back, it is hard to describe. Thx, Sven
Pharo: enterprise applications at prototype speed :) (I'm one of the guys who hear "enterprise" and get scared, but thats probably because of my java-past :() best, Esteban El 21/02/2012, a las 9:08a.m., Sven Van Caekenberghe escribió:
On 21 Feb 2012, at 09:52, Göran Krampe wrote:
Pharo (or Smalltalk in general) is for me about *speed* of development.
Yes, one can make a huge list of other attributes - but it all boils down to that *for me*. For example, one could say "no, it is also about quality of code through good OO design" - but if you think about it, quality of design gives *speed*. The quality in itself doesn't give me "value" (well, I am being black-and-white here), but the speed that a good quality codebase gives me (in adapting to change etc) is true hard value. That speed makes programming fun. That speed impresses people. That speed is a true distinguishing feature.
And of course, the speed comes as a product of many factors of which some are unique (but not all of them are):
language-brevity * language-modeling-capability * tools * dynamic-typing * instant-compilation * app-always-running = awesome speed!
...and if we break out tools from the above equation:
tools = full-reflection * written-all-in-itself * everyone-can-contribute-no-need-for-plugin-system-like-eclipse * crossplatform-so-everyone-can-contribute-regardless-of-OS
So if I would "pitch" Pharo to other developers, it would be about the extravagant speed of development. Sure, cross platform and good performance through Cog is nice, but for me and many other web devs (which perhaps contitutes 90% of the audience) it would be Linux anyway and the VM speed is not a real problem. But as I said, cross-platform is important for us to be able to work together on "common ground" improving the environment.
Yes, well written and so true (for me in any case).
Once you are used to Smalltalk it is so hard to go back, it is hard to describe.
Thx,
Sven
S, Marcus Denker piše:
AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Maybe it is a time to redefine such otherwise quite adequate meaning of the term "Enterprise" with Pharo ;) Janko -- Janko Mivšek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si
The choice is ours to make and define. Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side... Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a studio. Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c# have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout as major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of managers in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact that the junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. Image based runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst stuff few comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a task, including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when required only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general developer base. I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software: authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, interfaces to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One can push in a long list... All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's symbiotic in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more funding there will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more happier all levels of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will be. Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must eventually.. On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Hi, while I see many of your points, I disagree with some of them: We have a tool that allow us to deliver complete and powerful applications in 2-6 weeks (and even less): Pharo. Right now my small company (of myself :) ) is finishing (bah, doing some change requests) for an application for managing thousands of accounts and data. Application was made on Glamour+Magritte+MongoTalk+Some persistence and reporting tool made by myself, based on magritte. Customer is really happy, because now they can obtain reports of any kind instead the shit they have before (made in Delphi, but there is not a problem of delphi itself but the programmer using it) The time to develop from scratch this? Four weeks-man. And if we took off all the work I made to make MongoTalk work, reporting and some personal adjusts to glamour, it would be less than three weeks (is important to know, because that work does not need to be repeated...). (btw, I could do the same for the web, using Seaside) Also, we are working (not yet there, but almost), to accomplish several of the issues not completely done for enterprise: 1) we have DBXTalk, to RDBMS. Is slow, but that's a problem of FFI that we think it will be solved soon (with Threaded FFI) 1.1) we also have a growing set of packages for working with NoSQL (Mongo, Riak, Tokio) 2) we have UI components and powerful frameworks like Glamour, but I agree there is a lot more work needed there 3) we have ways to talk to outside world (FFI, NB)... but also I agree more work is needed there (for instance, I would like to embed pharo into other applications, not just call libraries from pharo) 3.1) we also have SOAP support (never tried, not sure it's status) 4) For remote: we have Ubiquitalk 5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac) 6) reporting. Ok, not much here... but there is HPDF package and I will release my HPDFReport and CSVReport classes soon (they are very easy classes anyway, don't expect too much :) for... bach modules... not sure what are you meaning with that... So yes, many of this issues are not really finished or stable (and that's why I see your concerns)... but just think where we were last year. I'm really optimistic about the future. What we really, really need is a book: "Pharo for the Enterprise". Something like the JEE specification, explaining how enterprise customers can use Pharo for their business, right now is a bit confusing, I admit that. Other concern (but this is a no-point for discussion, I just wanted to say it :P): Java and C# are not easy at all to learn. They are hard and ugly and new programmers spend years learning it (if they ever learn it completely)... also it is uncomfortable for starters (look how much you need to have a simple "hello, world" there). You think preparing an image is hard? give a new programer a maven script and ask him to build an application with that. Or worst, ask him to add a new dependency... Industry uses those languages and not Smalltalk for many-many reasons... but this is not one of them. (Also... there is a lot of big industries still developing on COBOL. sadly) best, Esteban El 21/02/2012, a las 2:16p.m., Krishsmalltalk escribió:
The choice is ours to make and define.
Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side...
Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a studio.
Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c# have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout as major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of managers in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact that the junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. Image based runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst stuff few comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a task, including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when required only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general developer base.
I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software: authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, interfaces to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One can push in a long list...
All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's symbiotic in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more funding there will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more happier all levels of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will be.
Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must eventually..
On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
esteban - I want a talk presenting your application for the pharo conference - yes you will work with igor to get FFI nb aligned - for Pharo for the enterprise: I started with Olivier Auverlot but I feel alone :) we should have the DBXtalk chapter! Thanks guile! Stef On Feb 21, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
Hi,
while I see many of your points, I disagree with some of them:
We have a tool that allow us to deliver complete and powerful applications in 2-6 weeks (and even less): Pharo.
Right now my small company (of myself :) ) is finishing (bah, doing some change requests) for an application for managing thousands of accounts and data. Application was made on Glamour+Magritte+MongoTalk+Some persistence and reporting tool made by myself, based on magritte. Customer is really happy, because now they can obtain reports of any kind instead the shit they have before (made in Delphi, but there is not a problem of delphi itself but the programmer using it) The time to develop from scratch this? Four weeks-man. And if we took off all the work I made to make MongoTalk work, reporting and some personal adjusts to glamour, it would be less than three weeks (is important to know, because that work does not need to be repeated...). (btw, I could do the same for the web, using Seaside)
Also, we are working (not yet there, but almost), to accomplish several of the issues not completely done for enterprise:
1) we have DBXTalk, to RDBMS. Is slow, but that's a problem of FFI that we think it will be solved soon (with Threaded FFI) 1.1) we also have a growing set of packages for working with NoSQL (Mongo, Riak, Tokio) 2) we have UI components and powerful frameworks like Glamour, but I agree there is a lot more work needed there 3) we have ways to talk to outside world (FFI, NB)... but also I agree more work is needed there (for instance, I would like to embed pharo into other applications, not just call libraries from pharo) 3.1) we also have SOAP support (never tried, not sure it's status) 4) For remote: we have Ubiquitalk 5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac) 6) reporting. Ok, not much here... but there is HPDF package and I will release my HPDFReport and CSVReport classes soon (they are very easy classes anyway, don't expect too much :)
for... bach modules... not sure what are you meaning with that...
So yes, many of this issues are not really finished or stable (and that's why I see your concerns)... but just think where we were last year. I'm really optimistic about the future.
What we really, really need is a book: "Pharo for the Enterprise". Something like the JEE specification, explaining how enterprise customers can use Pharo for their business, right now is a bit confusing, I admit that.
Other concern (but this is a no-point for discussion, I just wanted to say it :P): Java and C# are not easy at all to learn. They are hard and ugly and new programmers spend years learning it (if they ever learn it completely)... also it is uncomfortable for starters (look how much you need to have a simple "hello, world" there). You think preparing an image is hard? give a new programer a maven script and ask him to build an application with that. Or worst, ask him to add a new dependency... Industry uses those languages and not Smalltalk for many-many reasons... but this is not one of them. (Also... there is a lot of big industries still developing on COBOL. sadly)
best, Esteban
El 21/02/2012, a las 2:16p.m., Krishsmalltalk escribió:
The choice is ours to make and define.
Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side...
Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a studio.
Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c# have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout as major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of managers in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact that the junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. Image based runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst stuff few comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a task, including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when required only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general developer base.
I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software: authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, interfaces to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One can push in a long list...
All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's symbiotic in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more funding there will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more happier all levels of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will be.
Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must eventually..
On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Hi, El 21/02/2012, a las 5:52p.m., Stéphane Ducasse escribió:
esteban
- I want a talk presenting your application for the pharo conference
you ask it, you have it... :)
- yes you will work with igor to get FFI nb aligned
cool!
- for Pharo for the enterprise: I started with Olivier Auverlot but I feel alone :) we should have the DBXtalk chapter! Thanks guile!
yes... maybe pharo conf. help to align this work Esteban
Stef
On Feb 21, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
Hi,
while I see many of your points, I disagree with some of them:
We have a tool that allow us to deliver complete and powerful applications in 2-6 weeks (and even less): Pharo.
Right now my small company (of myself :) ) is finishing (bah, doing some change requests) for an application for managing thousands of accounts and data. Application was made on Glamour+Magritte+MongoTalk+Some persistence and reporting tool made by myself, based on magritte. Customer is really happy, because now they can obtain reports of any kind instead the shit they have before (made in Delphi, but there is not a problem of delphi itself but the programmer using it) The time to develop from scratch this? Four weeks-man. And if we took off all the work I made to make MongoTalk work, reporting and some personal adjusts to glamour, it would be less than three weeks (is important to know, because that work does not need to be repeated...). (btw, I could do the same for the web, using Seaside)
Also, we are working (not yet there, but almost), to accomplish several of the issues not completely done for enterprise:
1) we have DBXTalk, to RDBMS. Is slow, but that's a problem of FFI that we think it will be solved soon (with Threaded FFI) 1.1) we also have a growing set of packages for working with NoSQL (Mongo, Riak, Tokio) 2) we have UI components and powerful frameworks like Glamour, but I agree there is a lot more work needed there 3) we have ways to talk to outside world (FFI, NB)... but also I agree more work is needed there (for instance, I would like to embed pharo into other applications, not just call libraries from pharo) 3.1) we also have SOAP support (never tried, not sure it's status) 4) For remote: we have Ubiquitalk 5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac) 6) reporting. Ok, not much here... but there is HPDF package and I will release my HPDFReport and CSVReport classes soon (they are very easy classes anyway, don't expect too much :)
for... bach modules... not sure what are you meaning with that...
So yes, many of this issues are not really finished or stable (and that's why I see your concerns)... but just think where we were last year. I'm really optimistic about the future.
What we really, really need is a book: "Pharo for the Enterprise". Something like the JEE specification, explaining how enterprise customers can use Pharo for their business, right now is a bit confusing, I admit that.
Other concern (but this is a no-point for discussion, I just wanted to say it :P): Java and C# are not easy at all to learn. They are hard and ugly and new programmers spend years learning it (if they ever learn it completely)... also it is uncomfortable for starters (look how much you need to have a simple "hello, world" there). You think preparing an image is hard? give a new programer a maven script and ask him to build an application with that. Or worst, ask him to add a new dependency... Industry uses those languages and not Smalltalk for many-many reasons... but this is not one of them. (Also... there is a lot of big industries still developing on COBOL. sadly)
best, Esteban
El 21/02/2012, a las 2:16p.m., Krishsmalltalk escribió:
The choice is ours to make and define.
Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side...
Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a studio.
Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c# have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout as major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of managers in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact that the junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. Image based runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst stuff few comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a task, including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when required only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general developer base.
I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software: authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, interfaces to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One can push in a long list...
All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's symbiotic in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more funding there will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more happier all levels of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will be.
Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must eventually..
On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
Yes,
Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
Adopt the Pharo motto:
"Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac)
Authentication might include Kerberos & integrating with MS Windows Single Sign On.
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac)
Authentication might include Kerberos & integrating with MS Windows Single Sign On.
Include also SAML and OAuth, and Pharo will be well covered :)
participants (14)
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Ben Coman -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Geoffroy Couprie -
Guido Stepken -
Göran Krampe -
Janko Mivšek -
Krishsmalltalk -
Marcus Denker -
Nick Ager -
Norbert Hartl -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tudor Girba