@Stephan Granted and agreed! But that does not explain why it seems that nobody has really used this obviously brilliant Orca approach! In my view, this Orca approach seems by far 'better' in many respects than some pseudo-solutions that expect us to program in the browser (= just absurd) and which neglect the gigantic advantages of our Smalltalk IDEs over the JavaScript world. Any Smalltalker who has ever tried to develop a bigger piece of JavsScript code (like I did) must have been disgusted by the stone-age status of the available tools and should welcome the availability to develop client-server solution entirely in Smalltalk. And today, with the availability of WebSockets, there should even be far better ways of having an Orca-based client communicate with a Smalltalk driven server on a message-passing level. It seems that WebSockets have not been used in Orca in 2011 and before, but it should not be problem to add them. Further, I see TIRADE by Göran Krampe http://goran.krampe.se/category/tirade/ as another useful addition. But most importantly, Orca should be the basis for a much better alternative to this (in my view) insane, ugly and very slow Seaside. Orca is the perfect tool to create a modern and entirely browser-based user interface with ONE single source code for browser AND desktop based Smalltalk driven applications. This would overcome our (Smalltalk in general) greatest deficiency and that has always been the user-interface, which is the by far most decisive success factor for every application software today. Look at the *Smalltalk UI status*, which for me is still nothing but a *tragedy*: Desk-top only UI definitions exist in *VA and Dolphin* where Dolphin is at least close to what most users consider and expect as the standard and that is, if we like it or not, Windows. The same is true for VW where the *VisualWorks UI* is internally totally insane, undocumented, old-fashioned in many aspects, not multi-lingual at all (despite their claims), 'polling', it’s simply “kaputt” from the very beginning. *Squeak’s UI* is out of any discussion and *Pharo‘s UI* is somewhat more modern but miles away from what end-users expect and tolerate, not to mention what they would love as an application UI. Having separate UI code for the desk-top and the browser is a sick idea anyway and therefore NO Smalltalk today is really suitable for developing modern, end-user friendly, simply “sexy” user interfaces. I have always been convinced that the total absence of a 'good UI' in Smalltalk for desk-top and browser has been *the major reason for Smalltalk's failure* to attract a large and prefessional (developers of wide-spread standard software) user-base, apart from the greed [Goldberg] and arrogance towards the UI and the absurd licensing conditions and price-wishes of the early managers not only at ParcPlace but also at their successors (some of their licencing is rather slavery). Shouldn't we finally change this sad situation? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

@Serge Merci beaucoup for the recommendation but I had looked at the PharoJS page a few times before and I had not touched it, simply because it's the usual thing that there is absolutely no meaningful information, description, features list etc available. The slides don't really tell anything either and the FAQ mainly tells where to get cups and shirts (ok that was nasty). There are so many merely academic pseudo-solutions especially in the Squeak and Pharo area, most of which have never really made it to production state, that over the years I have become extremely sceptical. It's a great pity in my eyes, because there are definitely many very bright people engaged there and here. Unfortunately, many if not most Smalltalkers are very far away in their perception and thinking from the end-users. The Orca docs are just the total opposite, they are very detailed, extremely professional and very convincing. But I don't know yet about the code behind and because of that I will now give PharoJS a try and look at it. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hi frank You can contact noury at bouraqadi@gmail.com Serge does not work on PharoJS. Noury and Dave are. Stef On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> wrote:

@Serge and @those who developed PharoJS

My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed. See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html

Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately) my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to use them.

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hi-- Eliot writes to Frank:

Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM.

You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself.

Oh, I'm plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :) I was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question here, and I got attacked for responding to it. Anyway, yes: livecoded Pharo in web browsers is working. thanks! -C -- Craig Latta Black Page Digital Amsterdam :: San Francisco craig@blackpagedigital.com voice through 2017-09-12: + 1 510 833 5799 (SMS ok) +31 20 893 2796 (no SMS)

Hello Craig, upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and questions. As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers. Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly about the success or failure of an application software. There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS. As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working image? Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it's done? (Side-remark: This part is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!) Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS? I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a "documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development. Thank you in advance for a short comment. Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 8/14/17, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> wrote: [snip]

There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS.

As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working image?

Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it's done? (Side-remark: This part is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!)

Hello Frank A question: you wrote earlier about an 'excellent' Orca documentation? Where did you find it? http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/orca/index.html has a demo video and installation instructions for server (Squeak) and client (JavaScript) Or is it this paper [1] you are referring to? Regards Hannes [1] http://squeak.org/research/ Lauritz Thamsen, Anton Gulenko, Michael Perscheid, Robert Krahn, Robert Hirschfeld, and David A. Thomas. “Orca: A Single-Language Web Framework for Collaborative Development.” In Proceedings of the Conference on Creating, Connecting and Collaborating through Computing (C5) 2012, 45–52. IEEE, 2012.

Hello Hannes, for some reason your post does not show up here on the forum (and I hate mailing lists):

Hello Frank

A question: you wrote earlier about an 'excellent' Orca documentation? Where did you find it?

http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/orca/index.html has a demo video and installation instructions for server (Squeak) and client (JavaScript)

Or is it this paper [1] you are referring to?

Regards Hannes

I did not save the links, because in these days of censoring I always donwload content of interest. But here are the full titles of the primary two documents, they should be easy to find: Lauritz Thamsen und mehrere andere Orca: A single-language web framework for collaborative Development 2012 International conference on Creating, Connecting and Collaboration through computing Lauritz Thamsen Object collaboration in the Orca web framework. I am currently working on an (internal) paper comparing the various systems. In case you are interested in an bilateral phone discussion and opinion exchange, your are most welcome. Please just drop me a line. Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hello Craig, your answer to my posting to you does not show up here and I only accidentally detected it in the flood of unwanted messages that came is. See my frustration posting above. I accidentally saw just your reply come in. This is why I am answering here to the most important points. I hope you receive this answer. I wrote:

...especially if their sources MUST be closely connected with existing Smalltalk code, which does not run in the client like all the data-driven model definitions etc that I already have

You answered:

There is no such requirement.

Of course, there is, actually it's an absolute necessity in my case. Almost all UI components relate to some definition data, which exist in my main Smalltalk environment. From this data the DDL is generated, the models created, this data handles at run-time the instance variables, avoid getters and setters, and a huge lot more. It's ALL ONLY in ONE central place, of course. No dedundancies! This also handles versions and different configs. The UI is just a slightly enhanced extension to the data-definded models in the MVC concept. And all my models are defined ONLY by data. It would be insane to douplicate this data into the UI parts! I wrote:

the responsivness of such a solution in the browser must always be far slower than any "normal" browser UI

You answered:

That's not true. For example, at the moment my UI is Mozilla's A-Frame 3D virtual reality framework, at 90 frames per second.

Well, what I have seen from the demos, the responsiveness to the cursor alone is so very far away from being acceptable that I only belive, what you are writing, when I have seen a real-word JavaScript UI based on your system. Sorry, over the years, from bad experiences and one's own mistakes, I have become very sceptical and even more careful. I wrote:

and it's impossible to port my >10.000 framwork and application classes to Squeak.

You answered:

Caffeine can use Pharo, Squeak, or Cuis.

Well, my Smalltalk code is in neither of these and it would cost many months of work and the loss of very essential tools to port this to any of your supported systems. That is out of any discussion. Such an investment would never pay back and AFAIK a lot of features are missing in Pharo to substitute my current environment (I couldn' be drunk enough to ever consider Squeak alone because of its outregeous UI). However, *I see one advantage in your approach*, assuming that no Smalltalk source code must be sent to the client (I have no info about that) and this is in the fact that Smalltalk byte code is, of course, a much better protection of IPR than any obfuscated JavaScript could ever offer. But the price for this advantage would be far to high, as far as I can currently tell. So, thank you for responding. I tink we can close the case at least for the foreseable future (and I can't wait, I need some working solution during winter 2017/18). Good luck with your development! Best regards Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Good morning Craig, thank you very much for your reply. *Your statements sound very good and most interesting!* Please pardon, if I expressed myself improperly and not clear enough, which seems to have brought you on a wrong track. So, I propose, let's make a total reset to our current conversation and start it all over again! In order to be more successful in this, I would need more details and I will try to acquire them in the next few days. Is there any link and/or doc where I can get more details on your work and plans than there are available on: https://pharojs.github.io ? The cause of your last posting is that my interest in your concepts has grown tremendously. You will soon see why. I will give you a more details about my environment and intentions: - *WebSockets* are available and play an essential part in my UI concepts. - *Pharo* - I don't mind using Pharo for, let's say, some "intermediate code fractions" as long as the existing server image can keep the sources and generate UI definitions for the client from its definition data. The technical code interchange between Pharo and the Smalltalk I use works quite well. It must just be avoided to port >10.000 application and test classes wtih >200K methods and all my own tools to Pharo. No way! - *User Interface* it seems that we are discussing here two levels, which should be seen separately although they closely interact, of course: 1) there is your part, which consists (in my simple words) of some browser add-on 2) there will be another part, which - at least over the next few years - consists of the by far most comprehensive UI library on the market, which is best capable of providing a desk-top look-and-feel and which much later I intend to substitute by a Smalltalk UI library (see below) 3) there partially are already and will soon be much more of my code, which in the near future acts as *middle layer* with these main purposes to: 3a) Generate all of the UI components using 2) only from definition data, whose original resides in my server image and which is serialized and provided to the client - mainly in a start-up batch procedure and to a smaller part also during run-time by responding to user actions and/or events I have been using an earlier version of this UI lib a few years ago based on handwritten JS code (what a nightmare for a Smalltalker to write JS code in these stone-age tools [I used Eclipse]) for a smaller project and from there I have some experience, which as far as this lib is concerned is mostly positive and for JS just the opposite primarily for the almost non-existing IDE and the crap of file-based sources in general Side-remark1: Why don't want these ignorant idiots who develop JavaScript and its primitive tools refuse to learn from Smalltalk?!?! In a JS forum, some of them wanted to explain me what "o-o" means although I made the clear statement that I have mostly Smalltalk experience. Side-remark2: I used Joose.it, a JavaScript extension that uses a somewhat Smalltalk-like syntax. It was developed by a former HPI student in Potsdam who came from the Smalltalk world. Brilliant! 3b) The middle layer will also act as a generic and data-driven message and data exchange interface with the server, whose purpose is to automate and mostly handle in a generic fashion all the required message passing between the "V" in the client and the "M" in the server as in MVC. 3c) The middle layer will also provide some lower-level "C"ontrollers, which again will mostly consist of data as a first and generic user action control system. 3d) Soon later the data-driven middle layer will be the precondition and technical basis of an UI editor, which is to enable low-skilled programmers, consultants and even somewhat trained and motivated end-users to modify or enhance parts (primarily containers, canvasses) of the prepared UI to their taste and needs. This is the logical extension to and it must work closely together with my long existing user-extendable data models, which constitute an important feature of my applications. 4) My long-term but most important plans (again: the UI iS THE decisive part in standard software) go far beyond this scenario. To cut it short, just the core points: 4a) The JS lib must be fully replaced by a mostly compatible Smalltalk lib (that aint no simple work). 4b) There must be a "private" browser, which offers Smalltalk direct access to the DOM without the current limitations (SOP single origin policy being just one of them) and which sends events straight to Smalltalk. 4c) This private browser should ideally become a technically integrated part of the whole Smalltalk scenario. I know that this is feasable. This will make my mass-market applications independent of the big-G evil giant who is about to extend their monopoly to the browser usages also due to FF's incapabilities to keep it's market share and with G's latest intention to regulate the advertising market by setting their rules in their unfortunately most popular browser. A few more general notes: - there is no room for this ugly, insane crap called *html* in most of my scenarios. It'll all go straight to the DOM. - the *browser* in my scenarios comes in two appearances: a) as a classical browser (to which I have lots of good ideas) b) as a desk-top like UI, which does not appear to be a browser but technically still is by 100% - I have lots of concepts and ideas concerning the user interface (those parts that the user really interacts with) and one of my hopes is that in the long-run this will solve Smalltalk's greatest deficiencies, which are in the lack of a really user-friendly and standard-like looking UI. See my posting here above of 13. Aug. 2017 - 22:42. - I do have a neither finished nor yet presentable white paper, size close to 100 pages, about my UI plans but I do not want to disclose this by now. It's far too early. - There is an important caveat in the close integration of the definition data with the UI parts, which mainly are an extension to what already exists in the definition data. It will neither be possible nor make any sense to extract some parts of it and use them separately. It's either all or nothing. Also, the learning curve is quite high, because the existing framework simplifies, standardizes and automates lot's of things, which must otherwise be programmed individually, but this causes a lot of learning requirements of the extemely well documented abstract and generic parts of my class tree - and it's not in Pharo. Best regards Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hi Frank, Le mar. 15 août 2017 à 22:11, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> a écrit :

@about this forum at world.st

I never use that website to interact with the mailing list. Most people I know use regular mail as me. In practice, we use that forum as conversation backup. It's also practical because Google indexes it (in contrast to our non Google groups mailing list).

<http://world.st>

I have a lot of forum experience from studying "forum psychology and sociology" in three different language and in various forums run by very different software but I have never come about any system that is *nearly as crappy, sick and idiotic as this one here*:

- various message don't show up here - masses of emails that I am not interested in are polluting my email client (and I will stop this silly downloading tonight by directing them straight into the delete folder) - and one is never informed if there is any reply to one's posting, which is standard on almost all forums and comment part of blogs - and there is no chance to directly reply to some post - thus there is no branching of the subjects - which makes following a sib-thread most difficult

I am neither going to write answers in my email clent, not will I continue to pollute my system with 99% unwanted messages.

I just ask myself: Why are Smalltalk people with the "best" IDE of all using such a crappy system!?

Mailing lists are something - in my view - soooo much outdated and just a pain in the....!

Well, currently the communication of this community is split between the mailing list (not the online forum I assume you use) and a discord group. We tried slack before but we abandoned it because it loses conversation history unless you pay. Actually, discord has far more interactions. But mailing lists are for perenne conversations. Those who like both are subscribed to both. Guille

Now: Hunt me, shout at me, call me whatever you want! That's fine by me. It would be the normal reaction of a crowd if a new sheep dares to criticise what the crowd has been doing for long. I don't care!

Regards Frank

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--

Guille Polito Research Engineer French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr* <http://www.cnrs.fr> *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Phil, nice attempt to drill and silence me! My advise: They all failed! If somebody can't cope with straight critics or unpopular opinions that aint my fault. Frank who never worried about being labeled and from a country where free speech is still welcome -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Am 16.08.2017 um 13:21 schrieb Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito@gmail.com>:

Hi Frank,

I'll just repeat Stef's message: It's not about being straight or having unpopular opinions. It's about being rude and on the limit of the insult. I feel myself some harshness in your messages, it's like you're saying that everybody but you is stupid. I know that you did not say that "explicitly" but that's the way it feels. And I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling like it.

Of course, that did not prevent me to answer you politely, but at the end what will happen is that people will not answer you anymore. Just take into account that if many people think already that your mails are aggressive, there may be some fault on your side too.

That said, this does not mean that I want to "censor" you. Just choose better your words but keep the same content.

+1 to all you said. And I would like to know why every smalltalk troll is german? That's so sad! Norbert

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de <mailto:frank.berger.software@web.de>> wrote: Phil,

nice attempt to drill and silence me! My advise: They all failed!

If somebody can't cope with straight critics or unpopular opinions that aint my fault.

Frank who never worried about being labeled and from a country where free speech is still welcome

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... <http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4...> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--

Guille Polito

Research Engineer French National Center for Scientific Research - http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr/>

Web: http://guillep.github.io <http://guillep.github.io/> Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13

Dear @all three above, I won't step into such off-topic discussions in a technical forum, especially not if postings contain such stereotype and almost rassist propaganda arguments as above. I hold it avec le grand Voltaire - and I am expecting the same from everybody I communicate with: L'original: "Je hais vos idées, mais je me ferai tuer pour que vous ayez le droit de les exprimer" Il existes plusieurs versions et je ne sais pas laquelle est la juste. That is NOT a Google translation. I went to school in France. In Deutsch: "Mein Herr, ich teile Ihre Meinung nicht, aber ich würde mein Leben dafür einsetzen, daß Sie sie äußern dürfen." My translation to English: "Monsieur, I do not share your opinion, but I would give my life to defend that you may express it." *Tempi passati!* Today, truth and divergent opinions are the new hate crimes as we see here! I think it would be far more intelligent and useful to welcome what in German is called a "Querdenker" literally translated a "cross thinker" (or lateral thinker?) who in my case does not even expect others to agree. Très sincèrement - most sincerely - Habe die Ehre! Frank

From my side: Case closed!

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Could not agree more with entirety of your post. Especially the part of the massive improvement of Pharo version 1 vs 6 are like and day. Documentation wise even Unreal with its massive community and one of the most profitable game companies pouring massive resources has many doc problems. In perspective and taking the size of the community into account we do great there too. Personally I am running out of complains , my last ones is code completion and bootstrapping. I would like to thank all contributors for the amazing work. Pharo is not perfect but it is improving blazing fast again taking into account the size of the community. So excited for the future :) On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 17:27, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:

I don't know why you think that anybody would silence you.

Just the fact that you bother mentioning that is just a huge internal insecurity showcase to me.

Come on, if we cared about popular opinions, this would be a javascript or nodejs list, not a Pharo list. I do not care a bit about popularity. I care about my customers being happy and accounts receivable clearing up on time so that I can provide for people who depend on me.

As far as I am concerned, you actively contributed to your channel volume being set to mute on my side. That's how you come across and get on my nerves. Not because of what you write. Because of how.

I do not have a problem with critics against Pharo, I am cursing daily in front of it. So far, my level of cursing is lower when working with Pharo than with other tool chains.

Pharo is there, I am happy for it to be around. Since the 1.x era, this thing has massively improved. Pharo 7 will be wonderful. Bootstrapping, how great. Massively great. Vector graphics, super. VM seeing major improvements and speedup. Roassal: awesome. GT: nothing can touch it. Community: packed to the gills with people who actually deliver working and innovative code. Want to be part of it? Your loss if you choose not to. Otherwise, welcome.

Contribute whatever you can.

Docs are in a bad state? Grab the docker image for book production at https://github.com/cdlm/docker-texlive Clone something like https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/Booklet-Glorp, make a book about some stuff and push.

It is all tears in the rain anyway. As if I cared.

Phil

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> wrote:

...

Phil,

nice attempt to drill and silence me! My advise: They all failed!

If somebody can't cope with straight critics or unpopular opinions that aint my fault.

Frank who never worried about being labeled and from a country where free speech is still welcome

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Eliot, I already wrote twice: This case was closed on my side. I made my points clear but it seems you haven't read the whole thread. *Only because you misquoted me at least twice*, I feel obliged to correct your false quotations: 1)

Why is free speech necessarily a national issue?

Why don't want these ignorant idiots who

develop

I NEVER wrote anything like that! It just aint fair to fake statements that were never made! Unfortunately the suppression of free speech and even more so the self-censoring in peoples brains is in some countries, notably my home country in absence of a first amendment, far more advanced than in others - and in the US the "old system" is trying hard to achieve the same - look at all the fakes and lies around Putin bashing. But if writers here use the most primitive national cliches I find this extremely stupid and annoying - espcially for someone like me who has lived more than half of his life in several other countries. 2) You should really learn to read and quote exactly, instead of making so many false allegations, because I also clearly did *NOT* call the JS "community" idiots but very precisely the people who devloped this language and the primitive tools without wanting to learn from existing technologies like in Smalltalk. I wrote: * *

JavaScript and its primitive tools refuse to learn from Smalltalk?

Yes, that is my opinion! /(Though gramatically not quite correct!)/ Because of many good reasons. Actually, nobody should know this better than Smalltalkers! The more I am pulled and forced into such useless discussions often bsed on faked statements the less mood I have to add parts of my projects in the future. This is partially also the case, because I often have very different technological opinions not only on documentation. And if two writers tell me here to start documenting a third person's code, I find this just a bad silly joke. Yes, I am a documenation fanatic and my very long exprience tells me that this is totally correct. Failing to document is amateurish in my view and never ever can any excuse justify this failure! I do not expect anybody to agree with me but I expect everbody to accepts other opinions including mine. This wasn't the case here. See what I wrote about Voltaire at 16. Aug. 14:23.

I hope you have productive discussions here.

I must strongly doubt that this will be the case. And here is one proof why: I find it most unmasking and eye opening that *there was not a single comment to my long technical posting* of 16. Aug. 08:34. All reactions were bashing me for the opinions that I expressed and on my critics, which were mostly addressing third party subjects (or did anybody here write this supa dupa forum mailing list?). *This proofs: Far more people here are interested in enforcing a social consensus than they are in discussing technical proposals and innovations.* Would you call this a good basis for productive technical discussion? I wouln't! Regards Frank P.S. I suppose and do hope that you don't read your program code with the same low degree of precision as you quoted me! P.S.2: This was defintely my LAST response to any such off-topic postings whether fictious or true. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dimitris, the case you refer to was closed on my side: I won't comment. But there was one false quotation on your side:

I never heard or read any pharoer to refer to Pharo as the best IDE.

I did not write that! I referred to *Smalltalk in general* and I am deeply convinced that for o-o development *Smalltalk in general* has by far the "best" development environment based on objective features: It's the only one to tell instantly all senders, implementors, locally or globally, class refs and a lot of other things that others don't even dream of. BUT: I made not a single judgement on Pharo (except on it's UI for end-user products), simply because I don't know it sufficiently. And I agree, that Delphi was an extremely good product in my opinion primarily for the UI. I managed a project in Delhi many years ago but I did not code myself. My intend for writing here was beyond asking for the status of Smalltalk to JavaScript translators and alike to perhaps help to improve this and possibly a few other points. This is primarily concerning *my mid-range plans for a much better user interface*. My plans say that my UI will very easily support different Smalltalk dialects simoultaneously and it will be targeting professional business applications both in the browser and for the desk-top based on ONE code-base. But I am about to continue to do this ONLY in direct correspondance with writers here. I think this is much more productive and successful than having to fight ignorant, discriminatory and almost rasist postings from people who hate any critical and diverting opioins expressed in straight-forward but still correct language or who feel "insulted", because somebody does not agree with what they have been using. Being "pseudo-insulted" is the currently popular retorical attempt to suppress other people's opinions. Won't work on me! Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hello Craig, this approach just as Bert's VM in the browser is/are certainly technically very interesting projects and now comes the big "BUT": - I see absolutely no sense in this approach for real-world end-user applications - especially if their sources MUST be closely connected with existing Smalltalk code, which does not run in the client like all the data-driven model definitions etc that I already have - the Morph UI is out of any question related to what end-users expect (pardon, but end-users would regard this as a bad joke) - the esponsivness of such a solution in the browser must always be far slower than any "normal" browser UI - and it's impossible to port my >10.000 framwork and application classes to Squeak. There are several more reasons, why this would conflict with my future plans, which I do not want to disclose here. So, I see only academic reasons for this work. I do thank you for your answer. Should my view be copletely wrong, please let me know. Best regards Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p4... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oh, I'm plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :) I was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question here, and I got attacked for responding to it.

I surprised about it. Because we are welcoming discussions. Now discussions around Pharo are better :) Stef