Yes I know. To me, saving a method should make sure that we can reload it and this is not the case. So to me this is a bug. try to fileout getPreambleFrom: aFileStream at: position | writeStream | writeStream := String new writeStream. position to: 0 by: -1 do: [ :p | | c | aFileStream position: p. c := aFileStream basicNext. c == $! ifTrue: [^ writeStream contents reversed] ifFalse: [writeStream nextPut: c]] :) I do not see why the system should not save it correctly even if !! is used as a chunk separator. Stef On Jul 18, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

!! Is the escaping of a single ! (like '' is the escaping of ' in a string), because the ! Is used to separate junks.

Lukas

On Monday, 18 July 2011, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@free.fr> wrote:

...

Hi

with veronica we found a fun bug. If you have a method with a $! and you file it out. you get $!! in the fileouted file.

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4531

Stef

-- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Why do you say so ? I can fileOut, then fileIn without a problem. To me, this is not a bug. This is a feature. Source ! are doubled so as not to be confused with chunk separators, it's an escaping sequence like doubles quotes in String

'here''s another example which is not a bug'

this is not because people were not using a decent syntax to fileout and that after they hacked the system that this is not a bug. If you save a method and once it is saved you cannot load it back then what is the point to save it. Seriously this is not the same than with double quote. Else it means that you cannot/should not use $! in Smalltalk method. And I read most of the spec and books on smalltalk and nobody ever mentioned that. Here this is just that this is doing the wrong behavior. Imagine that we save the code using the coral syntax then what we would not use [] anymore in method? Stef

Nicolas

2011/7/18 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Yes I know. To me, saving a method should make sure that we can reload it and this is not the case. So to me this is a bug.

try to fileout

getPreambleFrom: aFileStream at: position | writeStream | writeStream := String new writeStream. position to: 0 by: -1 do: [ :p | | c | aFileStream position: p. c := aFileStream basicNext. c == $! ifTrue: [^ writeStream contents reversed] ifFalse: [writeStream nextPut: c]]

:)

I do not see why the system should not save it correctly even if !! is used as a chunk separator.

Stef

On Jul 18, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

...

!! Is the escaping of a single ! (like '' is the escaping of ' in a string), because the ! Is used to separate junks.

Lukas

On Monday, 18 July 2011, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@free.fr> wrote:

...

Hi

with veronica we found a fun bug. If you have a method with a $! and you file it out. you get $!! in the fileouted file.

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4531

Stef

-- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

2011/7/18 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>

...

Why do you say so ? I can fileOut, then fileIn without a problem. To me, this is not a bug. This is a feature. Source ! are doubled so as not to be confused with chunk separators, it's an escaping sequence like doubles quotes in String

'here''s another example which is not a bug'

this is not because people were not using a decent syntax to fileout and that after they hacked the system that this is not a bug.

Yes, it is by no way meant to be human written and does not decently meet the requirements for scripting. For exchanging code, the chunk format is a bit poor too, but it is manageable with a good change list tool (not the squeak one). And remember, it was (and is still) used for logging system changes in the change log. And it is very efficient for that. With chunk format, you don't need quoting the code (except exclamation mark itself of course), and that's an important feature IMO, this format served its purpose very decently. Well, you can tell me the Squeak hacks to identify authors and timestamp are awfully implemented, I can only agree, but the basis are very simple. TSTTCPW. If you save a method and once it is saved you cannot load it back then what

is the point to save it.

But you can. You can browse the code, can't you ? go and see in .sources or .changes, you'll see a doubled ! You can fileOut, then fileIn, no problem.

Seriously this is not the same than with double quote.

I don't agree

Else it means that you cannot/should not use $! in Smalltalk method. And I read most of the spec and books on smalltalk and nobody ever mentioned that. Here this is just that this is doing the wrong behavior.

Right, they don't mention a problem because there is no problem. There is no problem because the ! is handled by doubling so as to not confuse it with an end of chunk mark.

Nicolas

Imagine that we save the code using the coral syntax then what we would not use [] anymore in method?

Stef

...

Nicolas

2011/7/18 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Yes I know. To me, saving a method should make sure that we can reload it and this is

not the case.

...

So to me this is a bug.

try to fileout

getPreambleFrom: aFileStream at: position | writeStream | writeStream := String new writeStream. position to: 0 by: -1 do: [ :p | | c | aFileStream position: p. c := aFileStream basicNext. c == $! ifTrue: [^ writeStream contents reversed] ifFalse: [writeStream nextPut: c]]

:)

I do not see why the system should not save it correctly even if !! is used as a chunk separator.

Stef

On Jul 18, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:

...

!! Is the escaping of a single ! (like '' is the escaping of ' in a string), because the ! Is used to separate junks.

Lukas

On Monday, 18 July 2011, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@free.fr> wrote:

...

Hi

with veronica we found a fun bug. If you have a method with a $! and you file it out. you get $!! in the fileouted file.

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4531

Stef

-- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

2011/7/18 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>

But I cannot recompile the method I fileout. Can you? May be this is because I did not use the filelist and I copied and pasted from the file veronica sent me.

An alternative format not using escape sequence would be to define the end of chunk on line, like in a shell script: cat > myfile << END here is my own data END The chunk could be chosen by default and changed only if present in method source (or class comment or whatever). Particularly, if you want to transcribe class comments unaltered (that is without quoting of any form), you can't rely on any syntax to delimit the comments, there is none.

...

this is not because people were not using a decent syntax to fileout and that after they hacked the system that this is not a bug. Yes, it is by no way meant to be human written and does not decently meet the requirements for scripting. For exchanging code, the chunk format is a bit poor too, but it is manageable with a good change list tool (not the squeak one). And remember, it was (and is still) used for logging system changes in the change log. And it is very efficient for that. With chunk format, you don't need quoting the code (except exclamation mark itself of course), and that's an important feature IMO, this format served its purpose very decently. Well, you can tell me the Squeak hacks to identify authors and timestamp are awfully implemented, I can only agree, but the basis are very simple. TSTTCPW.

I think that it would deserve a new pass. Because "very simple" is not true when you look at the complexity = invoking the scanner to get some information and then poking around to know if this is a comment or a class definition.

Yes. The format is mainly like this: 1) metadata 2) source If metadata is missing or incomplete, then the tools have to try to decode the source (generally a do-it). This is particularly true in Squeak for a variety of actions (I don't have an image handy, but I think removing renaming a class etc... are in this category).

...

But you can. You can browse the code, can't you ? go and see in .sources or .changes, you'll see a doubled ! You can fileOut, then fileIn, no problem.

I spent some days a couple of year ago in the filein fileout because I wanted to load all the code of squeak starting from sq10 -> 3.9 and I can tell you that the allButLast first .... kind of expressions to skip over ' or ! to me indicate a problem because saving a element of program should not be like that and this is why the format of the fileout is not good. Of course it works but it does not mean that this is good.

Stef

Totally agree, as I said before, I don't like the implementation because it hardly readable, maintainable, and is very inefficient... Especially the handling of Squeak meta additions (timestamp, author). But the format by itself is very simple. I don't buy the terms "good" as an absolute reference, it must be relative to the requirements. Expose your requirements, then we'll can say which format is good or not. Nicolas