looks so exciting... From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14 - BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space. Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/ On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
\o/ On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks. On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
Thank you, indeed! Doru On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:39 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com
wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them). Block is not a clean. Is a revamp. No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P) Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote: \o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
I would be interested in trying to play with Block. Is it available? Cheers, Doru On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com
wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Hi Doru, all Bloc (and not Block). It is stored in Smaltalkhub. MCHttpRepository location: 'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/AlainPlantec/Bloc/main' user: '' password: '' You can use the world menu to create and switch to a Bloc world and come back to a Morphic one. The idea is to clean and deeply redesign everything. So far, only the basic Morph hierarchy is remade. We do not have a lot of time to work on it so we progress slowly. Cheers Alain On 11 juin 2014, at 22:11, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I would be interested in trying to play with Block. Is it available?
Cheers, Doru
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote: \o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
2014-06-11 23:13 GMT+02:00 Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@yahoo.com>:
Hi Doru, all
Bloc (and not Block). It is stored in Smaltalkhub. MCHttpRepository location: 'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/AlainPlantec/Bloc/main' user: '' password: ''
You can use the world menu to create and switch to a Bloc world and come back to a Morphic one. The idea is to clean and deeply redesign everything. So far, only the basic Morph hierarchy is remade.
We do not have a lot of time to work on it so we progress slowly.
Cheers Alain
I like the idea. The current Morph classes are too big. It is difficult to understand them and to find out how to work with them "the right way" (event handling for example or layouting). Can you describe something more about the design. Or is the design a work in progress. Please, I hope the "properties"-Dictionary is only a left over for Morphic compatibility. I never understood why these are used instead of proper selector and objects representing actual properties. nicolai
On 11 juin 2014, at 22:11, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I would be interested in trying to play with Block. Is it available?
Cheers, Doru
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <
tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel < camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore
because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs.
- The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
Hi Nicolai,
I like the idea. cool
The current Morph classes are too big. It is difficult to understand them and to find out how to work with them "the right way" (event handling for example or layouting).
this is our goal to clean and make the hierarchy easier to understand. Morph has to much responsibilities. Regarding the Morph hierarchy, so far, there are: BlProtoMorph BlAtomicMorph BlImageMorph BlHandMorph BlMorph BlCompositeMorph BlMorphWithLayout ( not ready ) BlPasteUpMorph BlWorldMorph BlProtoMorph "space owner drawer announcer visible locked position properties layerNumber transform errorOnDraw" BlHandMorph "pointer targetOffset savedPatch dragged" BlImageMorph "form alpha cachedForm" BlMorph "extent layoutProperties fillStyle boundsCache eventHandler borderStyle" BlCompositeMorph "submorphs" BlMorphWithLayout "layoutPolicy" BlWorldMorph "menuBuilder" As an example of cleaning, just compare HandMorph and BlHandMorph. HandMorph 'mouseFocus keyboardFocus eventListeners mouseListeners keyboardListeners mouseClickState mouseOverHandler lastMouseEvent targetOffset damageRecorder cacheCanvas cachedCanvasHasHoles temporaryCursor temporaryCursorOffset hardwareCursor hasChanged savedPatch lastEventBuffer lastKeyScanCode combinedChar eventSource lastSystemEvent captureBlock recentModifiers' A lot of HandMorph responsibilities and inst vars are now implemented in other classes (BlUserInputProcessor and BlSpace) Sorry it is a bit short but we will explain them (and more) in deeper detail later with a separate documentation and then we will discuss and learn from feedbacks :)
Can you describe something more about the design. Or is the design a work in progress.
yes, it is in progress
Please, I hope the "properties"-Dictionary is only a left over for Morphic compatibility. I never understood why these are used instead of proper selector and objects representing actual properties.
It is mandatory for MorphCompatibility. A lot of properties have already been properly reified as inst vars. But I don't have a definitive opinion about if it is useful/good design or not. Cheers Alain
nicolai
On 11 juin 2014, at 22:11, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
I would be interested in trying to play with Block. Is it available?
Cheers, Doru
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 9:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote: \o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
I like the idea. The current Morph classes are too big. It is difficult to understand them and to find out how to work with them "the right way" (event handling for example or layouting).
Can you describe something more about the design. Or is the design a work in progress.
Please, I hope the "properties"-Dictionary is only a left over for Morphic compatibility. I never understood why these are used instead of proper selector and objects representing actual properties.
For some objects you need a hashtable-based object because you may need a property that does not make sense all the time or just for some kinds of objects. So the extension is not a bad idea per se but we should pay attention. Stef
On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:06, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
I like the idea. The current Morph classes are too big. It is difficult to understand them and to find out how to work with them "the right way" (event handling for example or layouting).
Can you describe something more about the design. Or is the design a work in progress.
Please, I hope the "properties"-Dictionary is only a left over for Morphic compatibility. I never understood why these are used instead of proper selector and objects representing actual properties.
For some objects you need a hashtable-based object because you may need a property that does not make sense all the time or just for some kinds of objects. So the extension is not a bad idea per se but we should pay attention.
The PropertySlots will be interesting for this⦠the real negative point of properties as used in Morhpic is that they do not need to be declared. With property slots, you get the same memory efficiency, but you are forced to declare that a proper is used. Marcus
On 12 Jun 2014, at 12:53, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 12 Jun 2014, at 16:06, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
I like the idea. The current Morph classes are too big. It is difficult to understand them and to find out how to work with them "the right way" (event handling for example or layouting).
Can you describe something more about the design. Or is the design a work in progress.
Please, I hope the "properties"-Dictionary is only a left over for Morphic compatibility. I never understood why these are used instead of proper selector and objects representing actual properties.
For some objects you need a hashtable-based object because you may need a property that does not make sense all the time or just for some kinds of objects. So the extension is not a bad idea per se but we should pay attention.
The PropertySlots will be interesting for this⦠the real negative point of properties as used in Morhpic is that they do not need to be declared. With property slots, you get the same memory efficiency, but you are forced to declare that a proper is used.
Yeah, but I would not inflate the base morph with something that I might or might not use. I would use a hierarchy instead. Esteban
Marcus
Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like the idea of hand , world , etc. I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice. I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little time to understand the overall design. I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with. On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com
wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
On 11 Jun 2014, at 17:15, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like the idea of hand , world , etc.
I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice.
Spec is not an alternative to Morphic, is a superset (a way to nicely build widget components). So apart from *Morphic*, you do not have any other choice :)
I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little time to understand the overall design.
Same here. None of them are replacements⦠is a framework for visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you can do morphs that are drawn with Athens).
I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in the time. Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all we learned in the mean time :)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote: \o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
well if you keep the overall design of morphic or even improve it. I have no complain and you have my full support. I thought that you wanted to remove Morphic and make Spec the standard design for Pharo. I know what neither Athens or Roassal is a replacement for Morphic. I remember once I took a look at TreeMorph and I was shaking my head with sadness, it was really bad :D So yes Morphic is very messy. I also don't claim, just for the record, that the above libraries are not very useful and that I am not happy that are around and I can use them. I really appreciate people hard work and I am definitely try to learn as much as my limited free time allows me to. Maybe if you sit down and build a roadmap on the direction you want to go as a community on the GUI front this will help people contribute as it will set a clear goal for them. On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 17:15, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like the idea of hand , world , etc.
I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice.
Spec is not an alternative to Morphic, is a superset (a way to nicely build widget components). So apart from *Morphic*, you do not have any other choice :)
I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little time to understand the overall design.
Same here. None of them are replacements⦠is a framework for visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you can do morphs that are drawn with Athens).
I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in the time. Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all we learned in the mean time :)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel < camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
On 11/6/14 22:33, kilon alios wrote:
well if you keep the overall design of morphic or even improve it. I have no complain and you have my full support. I thought that you wanted to remove Morphic and make Spec the standard design for Pharo. I know what neither Athens or Roassal is a replacement for Morphic.
you confuse layers. Athens is an API to draw on a screen. Morphic is a graphics framework. Spec is a ui builder to compose widgets out of smaller widgets.
I remember once I took a look at TreeMorph and I was shaking my head with sadness, it was really bad :D So yes Morphic is very messy. TreeMorph is just a widget that grows organically.
I also don't claim, just for the record, that the above libraries are not very useful and that I am not happy that are around and I can use them. I really appreciate people hard work and I am definitely try to learn as much as my limited free time allows me to.
Maybe if you sit down and build a roadmap on the direction you want to go as a community on the GUI front this will help people contribute as it will set a clear goal for them.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 17:15, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yes personally I really like the overall design of a morph embedding nice and easily inside another morph and everything made up of morphs. I like the idea of hand , world , etc.
I try to like Spec, but it looks to me quite confusing, I tried to follow the tutorial but I cant understand its design and why so many methods are needed to setup a spec widget. I also dislike the use or pragmas. I will continue learning it but I don't prefer it over Morphic for now. AFAIK apart from Spec and Morphic there is no other choice.
Spec is not an alternative to Morphic, is a superset (a way to nicely build widget components). So apart from *Morphic*, you do not have any other choice :)
I also have hard time understanding Roassal and Athens. With Morphic its hard at times to figure out whats going on but at least it took very little time to understand the overall design.
Same here. None of them are replacements⦠is a framework for visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you can do morphs that are drawn with Athens).
I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in the time. Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all we learned in the mean time :)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Esteban
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com <mailto:tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com>> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com <mailto:camille.teruel@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com <mailto:tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com>> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr <mailto:alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr <mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr <mailto:alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
Same here. None of them are replacements⦠is a framework for visualisations (in the case of Roassal) and a framework for drawing (in case of Athens). One is on top of Morphic and the other is below it (you can do morphs that are drawn with Athens).
In the future Bloc will use Athens to display Blocs :)
I don't have a problem with Pharo abandoning Morphic. Afterally you all use Pharo far more than I do. I will continue learning Spec, Roassal and Athens. But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
We are not moving out from Morphic any time soon. Also, moving from an implementation of Morphic does not means we are going to refuse his general design or all the cool experience we accumulated in the time. Think on morphic and block like with Battlestar Galactica from 1978 and 2003: Same general design, but a complete âre-imaginedâ taking with us all we learned in the mean time :)
Exactly :)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:15:37PM +0300, kilon alios wrote:
But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
It's nice to see someone say something positive in appreciation of Morphic. It is quite a remarkable environment if you stop and think about it :-) Dave
Am 12.06.2014 um 01:09 schrieb David T. Lewis <lewis@mail.msen.com>:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:15:37PM +0300, kilon alios wrote:
But for me Morphic is the most beautiful Graphics API I have ever worked with.
It's nice to see someone say something positive in appreciation of Morphic. It is quite a remarkable environment if you stop and think about it :-)
I think the mentions of Morphic have always been positive. The negative everybody is complaining about is the actual implementation. Norbert
2014-06-11 16:55 GMT-03:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :)
What pattern is it?
Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it.
I wouldn't do that, and instead replace it by something different and use Morphs just for views.
Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Exactly, there is nothing close to a MVC/MVP/MVVM pattern in it. Right?
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
I agree with you here. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo
Am 11.06.2014 um 21:55 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Of course, I disagree :) There is no such thing as a reimplementation of software. I you reimplement it youâll develop something completely different. If the prior code would be good there would be no point in redoing it. And there is no point when redoing to do the same as before. You redo and you have the freedom to design something new while you skip all the wisdom/experience that has made its way into the old code. If you make it good the new thing will be an improvement to the old. Mostly you will end up having a new software with different problems but the same amount :) Norbert
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote: \o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ? I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
2014-06-12 10:01 GMT+02:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name>:
Am 11.06.2014 um 21:55 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
On 11 Jun 2014, at 16:39, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
excellent news. I really believe in Morphic and I really like its general design. If you we can clean the mud I am sure we will discover quite a diamond underneath. Thanks.
which general design? the pattern in which is based? thatâs not enough to keep it :) Sorry but there is no easy/efficient way to clean it. The only way to clean Morphic is to reimplement it. Clean it is just too much work⦠and too many design decisions where made that time and patches made them obsolete or not correct. Not to talk about the mix of concepts (bah, the no existence of separation between them).
Block is not a clean. Is a revamp.
No offence intended to Morphic: no matter how good was at the beginning, *every* system evolves up to a point the effort required to maintain it is superior to the effort required to reimplement it (with all the experience as a superior step). (yeah, yeah⦠a lot of people will disagree. But time has proven me right⦠and will continue doing it :P)
Of course, I disagree :) There is no such thing as a reimplementation of software. I you reimplement it youâll develop something completely different. If the prior code would be good there would be no point in redoing it. And there is no point when redoing to do the same as before. You redo and you have the freedom to design something new while you skip all the wisdom/experience that has made its way into the old code. If you make it good the new thing will be an improvement to the old. Mostly you will end up having a new software with different problems but the same amount :)
Norbert
Sure, you can reimplement software, for example you can reimplent an API. The implemenation behind the scene may be totally different but if you still provide the same API, this is what I would call "reimplementation". The reimplentation can be still "better" even if it don't provide new functionality. (Better could mean: maintainable, modular, more performant) But in the case of Morphic, it is more like reimplenting an "Idea" rathern than an API. "If the prior code would be good there would be no point in redoing it" Yes, but we are not talking about "good code", but about Morphic :) ( I don't think morphic is bad or bad code, Morphic has many good parts. The bad thing is, it is all cluttered.) nicolai
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 10:25 PM, François Stephany < tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
\o/
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Camille Teruel <camille.teruel@gmail.com
wrote:
On 11 juin 2014, at 15:31, François Stephany <tulipe.moutarde@gmail.com> wrote:
What is bloc ?
I've searched in the pharo-dev list but couldn't find it :/
A Morphic clean/revamp lead by Alain and Stef.
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 2:26 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
looks so exciting...
From: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr> Subject: Bloc news Date: 11 Jun 2014 14:10:29 GMT+2 To: Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> Cc: Alain Plantec <alain.plantec@univ-brest.fr>
Name: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.15 Author: AlainPlantec Time: 11 June 2014, 2:07:16.813171 pm UUID: d58ae82e-b5dd-41d9-bc31-a48c3e9e5cf1 Ancestors: Bloc-Core-AlainPlantec.14
- BlMorphs manage their submorphs with local coordinate. - Drawing and drag&drop has been adapted to local coordinate - Consequence: TransformationMorph should not be useful anymore because each morph has its own transform (not only TransformationMorph). Each morph uses its own transform to declare changed portions of its bounds and to draw its submorphs. - The world is no more a special morph: - the hand is owned by the space - the canvas and the display/redisplay of morphs are space responsibilities. This open the door to several worlds per space.
Now the current global redrawing mechanism efficiency is not obvious. Next actions: - try to localize as much as possible the redrawing of morphs, - dig several Worlds for a space - start to comment and write a separate documentation with the help of Stephane :)
participants (12)
-
Alain Plantec -
Camille Teruel -
David T. Lewis -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Esteban Lorenzano -
François Stephany -
kilon alios -
Marcus Denker -
Nicolai Hess -
Norbert Hartl -
stepharo -
Tudor Girba