Re: [Pharo-dev] Use pharo users mailing list
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages. Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views. The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), which is a major reason to have these lists. To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs. Stephan
2013/9/23 Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl>
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages. Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views. The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), which is a major reason to have these lists.
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
This is true, StackOverflow is badly contaminated.
Stephan
Stephan Eggermont wrote
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages. Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views. The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), which is a major reason to have these lists.
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Stephan
its dead ? I have not see any pharo questions get downvoted or closed so far. But yeah they are biased and they have a bad attitude at times but in the end all sites have these people. Stackoverflow has like any website it pros and its cons. About discussions in general, how many of the threads that are opened in user forum cannot be formulated easily into questions and answers. From what I see its no more than 10% . And taking into account the frequency of posts in the user forum , I would say no more than 1 per month which is hardly a reason to keep a mailing list around. And there are plenty of general questions in stackoverflow here is an example http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18946662/if-pypy-is-6-3-times-faster-than... <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18946662/if-pypy-is-6-3-times-faster-than...> so I do think the level of tolerance is actually quite high. If you take a look at the comments in that link its clear there is an overall discussion on the matter. Also it beats "quote wars" we have over here ;) Now for Pharo Dev specific , yes in that case a forum is a must have because obviously discussions are a main topic here to coordinate efforts and code changes. Anyway it was just a suggestion I am fine using the forum ;) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Use-pharo-users-mailing-list-tp4709698p4709729.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages.
There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically something like - statement of what you want to accomplish - attempt a solution with code which has problems - question
Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Mostly if the form does not fit. And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with enough reputation points this may be prevented
Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views.
Why?
The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages.
It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less popular languages. However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow. the tagging and referencing system is excellent.
Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions),
No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent. However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page.
which is a major reason to have these lists.
List are good in addition. --Hannes
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Stephan
The difference not only lies in the format, but also in the user base. I'm 30+ years old, and I grew up using bulletin boards, newsgroups and mailing list, but there is a big generation of "programmers" (emphasis in the quotes) that will never subscribe to a mailing list, some don't even know what a mailing list is. They grew up using sites like Yahoo Answers, and expect the same for their programming questions. I guess it is the same that happened in the transition from newsgroups to mailing lists, and as in the bbc to newsgroups, and newsgroups to mailing lists, every new generation seems to me like an order of magnitude bigger. I think BOTH options are okay, it is, a user list and StackOverflow like websites. The SEO of the later is really good. The flattening of the question/answer curve may have to do with the fact that most questions have been answered and they start to repeat. I use StackOverflow and SuperUser on a daily basis. And I do find most of the answers I need. To me the radical choice would be to merge both users and development mailing lists. The separation is okay from an organization point of view, but the volume today is no that big as to justify fragmentation, seems like an "early optimization". Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo 2013/9/23 H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com>:
On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages.
There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically something like
- statement of what you want to accomplish - attempt a solution with code which has problems - question
Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Mostly if the form does not fit. And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with enough reputation points this may be prevented
Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views.
Why?
The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages.
It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less popular languages. However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow.
the tagging and referencing system is excellent.
Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions),
No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent.
However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page.
which is a major reason to have these lists.
List are good in addition.
--Hannes
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Stephan
Google and a copy of the list in there is fine enough for me. SO is okay but frankly, I do not go there to look for stuff/answer questions, but because my google search sends me there. Where we could have exposure would be on things like infoQ. Regards, --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com>wrote:
The difference not only lies in the format, but also in the user base.
I'm 30+ years old, and I grew up using bulletin boards, newsgroups and mailing list, but there is a big generation of "programmers" (emphasis in the quotes) that will never subscribe to a mailing list, some don't even know what a mailing list is. They grew up using sites like Yahoo Answers, and expect the same for their programming questions.
I guess it is the same that happened in the transition from newsgroups to mailing lists, and as in the bbc to newsgroups, and newsgroups to mailing lists, every new generation seems to me like an order of magnitude bigger.
I think BOTH options are okay, it is, a user list and StackOverflow like websites. The SEO of the later is really good. The flattening of the question/answer curve may have to do with the fact that most questions have been answered and they start to repeat.
I use StackOverflow and SuperUser on a daily basis. And I do find most of the answers I need.
To me the radical choice would be to merge both users and development mailing lists. The separation is okay from an organization point of view, but the volume today is no that big as to justify fragmentation, seems like an "early optimization".
Regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
2013/9/23 H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel@gmail.com>:
On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages.
There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically something like
- statement of what you want to accomplish - attempt a solution with code which has problems - question
Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Mostly if the form does not fit. And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with enough reputation points this may be prevented
Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views.
Why?
The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages.
It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less popular languages. However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow.
the tagging and referencing system is excellent.
Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions),
No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent.
However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page.
which is a major reason to have these lists.
List are good in addition.
--Hannes
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Stephan
The one I found curious is that when I go to "smalltalk" tag http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/pharo+smalltalk <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/pharo+smalltalk> Almost all questions for smalltalk are about pharo. Are we by any chance more popular than we think ? :D Or maybe smalltalkers by large don't like stackoverflow. Its strange though. philippeback wrote
Google and a copy of the list in there is fine enough for me.
SO is okay but frankly, I do not go there to look for stuff/answer questions, but because my google search sends me there.
Where we could have exposure would be on things like infoQ.
Regards, --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:
phil@
| Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos
High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium
Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <
emaringolo@
>wrote:
The difference not only lies in the format, but also in the user base.
I'm 30+ years old, and I grew up using bulletin boards, newsgroups and mailing list, but there is a big generation of "programmers" (emphasis in the quotes) that will never subscribe to a mailing list, some don't even know what a mailing list is. They grew up using sites like Yahoo Answers, and expect the same for their programming questions.
I guess it is the same that happened in the transition from newsgroups to mailing lists, and as in the bbc to newsgroups, and newsgroups to mailing lists, every new generation seems to me like an order of magnitude bigger.
I think BOTH options are okay, it is, a user list and StackOverflow like websites. The SEO of the later is really good. The flattening of the question/answer curve may have to do with the fact that most questions have been answered and they start to repeat.
I use StackOverflow and SuperUser on a daily basis. And I do find most of the answers I need.
To me the radical choice would be to merge both users and development mailing lists. The separation is okay from an organization point of view, but the volume today is no that big as to justify fragmentation, seems like an "early optimization".
Regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
2013/9/23 H. Hirzel <
hannes.hirzel@
>:
On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <
stephan@
> wrote:
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages.
There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically something like
- statement of what you want to accomplish - attempt a solution with code which has problems - question
Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Mostly if the form does not fit. And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with enough reputation points this may be prevented
Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views.
Why?
The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages.
It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less popular languages. However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow.
the tagging and referencing system is excellent.
Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions),
No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent.
However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page.
which is a major reason to have these lists.
List are good in addition.
--Hannes
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Stephan
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Use-pharo-users-mailing-list-tp4709698p4709785.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> writes:
Kilon wrote
Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow.
Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for small languages. Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority views. The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), which is a major reason to have these lists.
To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs.
Well I just can confirmm that for me. I can not judge if it's dead but it's at least much less interesting then two years or so ago. You cannot ask any comparison questions any more. You can not ask questions about maintainability any more, because that will get closed. No Stackoverfow is not the answer. Maybe a kind of Forum would be nice to have. At least I'm not aware of any related to Smalltalk, but I may be wrong of course. Regards Friedrich
participants (7)
-
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Friedrich Dominicus -
H. Hirzel -
Hernán Morales Durand -
kilon -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Stephan Eggermont