The "death" of Smalltalk
Hi everyone, I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share. First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do.
From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future. Cheers, Jeff -- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Hi Jochen, have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time. Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4> Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0> and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ <http://www.je77.com/> Skype ID: jochenrick
Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! I liked it so much, I immediately posted it to Facebook and Google+. I will add it to the SRP website, as well. Thanks, again. sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4>;
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <
self@
> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0>; and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ <http://www.je77.com/>; Skype ID: jochenrick
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-death-of-Smalltalk-tp4798612p4798635.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi, instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand. IMHO it is STÂs essence of innovation and power. Lorenzo Da: Pharo-dev [ <mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org> mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sebastian Sastre Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk Hi Jochen, have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time. Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers IÂve heard! <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4 Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn! On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick < <mailto:self@je77.com> self@je77.com> wrote: Hi everyone, I just watched <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share. First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon. As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future. Cheers, Jeff -- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
On 12 Jan 2015, at 09:15, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi,
instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand. IMHO it is STâs essence of innovation and power.
What about showing/explaining (progressive complexity) 123 factorial. 123 factorial numberOfDigits. 123 factorial primeFactors. 123 factorial primeFactors reduce: [ :x :y | x * y ]. And in the last inspector self = 123 factorial The video was pretty good, but I would never start discussing precedence rules in this type of presentation and certainly not using plain arithmetic.
Lorenzo
Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sebastian Sastre Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Hi Sven, I find your observations absolutely reasonable; anyway, my point is to show the difference between "object" number and "normal" (I mean integer and floating point you find in "normal" languages)number. I have not seen the problem for many years so, maybe, at present is not the same, but I remember how I was surprised the first time I realized that I have not the floating point barrier using Smalltalk! It was in this moment that I felt that Smalltalk "is" the language! Ciao Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sven Van Caekenberghe Inviato: lunedì 12 gennaio 2015 09:48 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] R: from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
On 12 Jan 2015, at 09:15, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi,
instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand. IMHO it is STÂs essence of innovation and power.
What about showing/explaining (progressive complexity) 123 factorial. 123 factorial numberOfDigits. 123 factorial primeFactors. 123 factorial primeFactors reduce: [ :x :y | x * y ]. And in the last inspector self = 123 factorial The video was pretty good, but I would never start discussing precedence rules in this type of presentation and certainly not using plain arithmetic.
Lorenzo
Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di
Sebastian Sastre
Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers IÂve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
On 12 Jan 2015, at 10:55, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi Sven,
I find your observations absolutely reasonable; anyway, my point is to show the difference between "object" number and "normal" (I mean integer and floating point you find in "normal" languages)number. I have not seen the problem for many years so, maybe, at present is not the same, but I remember how I was surprised the first time I realized that I have not the floating point barrier using Smalltalk! It was in this moment that I felt that Smalltalk "is" the language!
Yes, Lorenzo, I am so used to that, that I completely forgot, but yes the fact that primitive types are just regular objects is really important (and a differentiator). What I remember now is another thing that I found so interesting: that you can (are allowed to and even encouraged to, when placed in separate protocols) your own methods on system classes (like numbers or string). There are so many cool aspects ;-)
Ciao
Lorenzo
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sven Van Caekenberghe Inviato: lunedì 12 gennaio 2015 09:48 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] R: from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
On 12 Jan 2015, at 09:15, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi,
instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand. IMHO it is STâs essence of innovation and power.
What about showing/explaining (progressive complexity)
123 factorial. 123 factorial numberOfDigits. 123 factorial primeFactors. 123 factorial primeFactors reduce: [ :x :y | x * y ].
And in the last inspector
self = 123 factorial
The video was pretty good, but I would never start discussing precedence rules in this type of presentation and certainly not using plain arithmetic.
Lorenzo
Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di
Sebastian Sastre
Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Yes Sven, we have so many advantages (logical and operational) we give for grant after ST! People that are using other (nice) languages are not even able to imagine. I remember a discussion I had about polymorphism with people from Borland about Pascal (a really good language). Maybe, this could be something we should point out; I am completely available for doing that. Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sven Van Caekenberghe Inviato: lunedì 12 gennaio 2015 11:06 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] R: R: from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
On 12 Jan 2015, at 10:55, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi Sven,
I find your observations absolutely reasonable; anyway, my point is to show the difference between "object" number and "normal" (I mean integer and floating point you find in "normal" languages)number. I have not seen the problem for many years so, maybe, at present is not the same, but I remember how I was surprised the first time I realized that I have not the floating point barrier using Smalltalk! It was in this moment that I felt that Smalltalk "is" the language!
Yes, Lorenzo, I am so used to that, that I completely forgot, but yes the fact that primitive types are just regular objects is really important (and a differentiator). What I remember now is another thing that I found so interesting: that you can (are allowed to and even encouraged to, when placed in separate protocols) your own methods on system classes (like numbers or string). There are so many cool aspects ;-)
Ciao
Lorenzo
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sven Van Caekenberghe Inviato: lunedì 12 gennaio 2015 09:48 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] R: from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
On 12 Jan 2015, at 09:15, Lorenzo Schiavina <lorenzo@edor.it> wrote:
Hi,
instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand. IMHO it is STÂs essence of innovation and power.
What about showing/explaining (progressive complexity)
123 factorial. 123 factorial numberOfDigits. 123 factorial primeFactors. 123 factorial primeFactors reduce: [ :x :y | x * y ].
And in the last inspector
self = 123 factorial
The video was pretty good, but I would never start discussing precedence rules in this type of presentation and certainly not using plain arithmetic.
Lorenzo
Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di
Sebastian Sastre
Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers IÂve heard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Hi Sebastian, Noel is actually my academic older brother (i.e., we had the same doctoral advisor). Noel's introduction is nice but it is to people who know how to program (specifically, Ruby programmers). That's useful. The Pharo books and YouTube videos do this very well. But, you also need to provide a way in for people who are learning to program. One thing you could do is provide a book that could be used at a university to teach object-oriented programming. Cheers, Jeff *Da:* Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org
<pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] *Per conto di *Sebastian Sastre *Inviato:* venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 *A:* Pharo Development List *Oggetto:* Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers I've heard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences *in an effective way*? watch and learn!
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Le 12/1/15 19:08, J.F. Rick a écrit :
Hi Sebastian,
Noel is actually my academic older brother (i.e., we had the same doctoral advisor). Noel's introduction is nice but it is to people who know how to program (specifically, Ruby programmers). That's useful. The Pharo books and YouTube videos do this very well. But, you also need to provide a way in for people who are learning to program. One thing you could do is provide a book that could be used at a university to teach object-oriented programming.
Indeed. People are really interested I have a lot of material that did not go in my botsinc book on OOP (a breakout, and a lot more). Stef
Cheers,
Jeff
*Da:*Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] *Per conto di *Sebastian Sastre *Inviato:* venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 *A:* Pharo Development List *Oggetto:* Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences *in an effective way*? watch and learn!
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
how nice! yes is a great intro to "change lanes" a bit more than learn anything. But that sparks stronger curiosity on experimenting After a intro like that, having a hackathon to actually do something would be ideal Most people just want to "build stuff" that can do the "cool tricks" It's almost painful to hear by the expert but not managing that emotion and turn that energy into something positive is silly since the expert is the best guy to mentor them to do those tricks with "this empowering tech" The kids just want to be magicians for their audiences and the opportunity to help them to do "the tricks" is there for who decides to take it. I'm sure you know this one: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law) English physicist & science fiction author from mobile
On 12/01/2015, at 16:08, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi Sebastian,
Noel is actually my academic older brother (i.e., we had the same doctoral advisor). Noel's introduction is nice but it is to people who know how to program (specifically, Ruby programmers). That's useful. The Pharo books and YouTube videos do this very well. But, you also need to provide a way in for people who are learning to program. One thing you could do is provide a book that could be used at a university to teach object-oriented programming.
Cheers,
Jeff
Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sebastian Sastre Inviato: venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences in an effective way? watch and learn!
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
you mean 1000 factorial / 9999 factorial. Le 12/1/15 09:15, Lorenzo Schiavina a écrit :
Hi,
instead of using the trivial 2 + 2 as ST example, for many years I have found more impressive: 50000 factorial printString size and then to show factorial method, that is very easy to understand.
IMHO it is STâs essence of innovation and power.
Lorenzo
*Da:*Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] *Per conto di *Sebastian Sastre *Inviato:* venerdì 9 gennaio 2015 19:07 *A:* Pharo Development List *Oggetto:* Re: [Pharo-dev] from 2009's The "death" of Smalltalk to 2014's But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalk
Hi Jochen,
have in mind that the talk you referred is from 2009 and many controversial things happened in the Ruby community at that time.
Coming closer to today, we just had this presentation which presents Smalltalk better than many Smalltalkers Iâve heard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGaKZBr0ga4
Want to show off smalltalk to non-smalltalker audiences *in an effective way*? watch and learn!
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com <mailto:self@je77.com>> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
--
Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
If Smalltalk is dead , that make Pharo a necromancer . Nice necromancers were always my favorite heroes in RPGs like Baldur's Gate :) Pharo , the dark side of the force :D On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 7:37 PM, J.F. Rick <self@je77.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws. From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up. There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
Hi everyone,
I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX3iRjKj7C0 and had a few comments that I thought I would share.
First, there is a real opportunity for Smalltalk to come back in the guise of Pharo. Steph and Marcus are doing a great job providing leadership towards that end and the community is great. Second, we need to be careful in spreading the word. Slowly but surely (the current Pharo approach) is a great approach as it allows really building something worth spreading before trying to get everyone into it. If it spreads too quickly, bad API or immature toolkits will become ingrained and flaws will be apparent. The books, websites, etc. are really good things to get right before trying to get others into it; they are already very good. Third, if you want to really spread Smalltalk, then the fundamentals that newcomers experience need to be without obvious flaws.
Yes
From personal experience, I can tell you that BitBlt rendering makes newbies think that Pharo is a toy language. Switching to Athens rendering is therefore tremendously important for adoption. Package management really needs to be cleaned up.
yes
There needs to be a simple way to merge resources (bitmaps, audio, external files) into the codebase. Simple audio needs to work on all platforms. This may seem trivial but audio is one of the simplest things that newcomers want to do. From a Linux perspective, this will probably necessitate switching to a 64-bit VM as the 32-bit sound plug-ins are a giant pain. Given that even phone OSs are switching to 64-bit, there may not be a need for a 32-bit Pharo. Of course, much of this is already on the horizon.
As the new year begins, I'll once again be coding in Pharo and look forward to it. I'm really hopeful about the future.
Cheers,
Jeff
-- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick
participants (7)
-
horrido -
J.F. Rick -
kilon alios -
Lorenzo Schiavina -
Sebastian Sastre -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe