[Pharo-project] Feedback from lecture :(
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes. We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems. Stef
Hi! My suggestion: Drop COGVM. Expecially in the One click Image. Bad for Pharos reputation at that point of development. LLVM is much better choice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7-Mjx6khr8 Very interesting to see Squeak/Pharo running in CHROME. With "native client bridge", so objects, data may be handed over to Javascript engine ... Makes more sense for me than a isolated VM, no touch, ... Have fun, Guido Stepken 2012/2/14 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
On 14 February 2012 19:50, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi!
My suggestion: Drop COGVM. Expecially in the One click Image. Bad for Pharos reputation at that point of development. LLVM is much better choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7-Mjx6khr8
Very interesting to see Squeak/Pharo running in CHROME. With "native client bridge", so objects, data may be handed over to Javascript engine ...
Makes more sense for me than a isolated VM, no touch, ...
Hello again. In another thread. :) Now just for the record, what you see here? You see a Squeak VM, compiled for NaCl. Yes, the very same VM which is used by Pharo. You can also discover that very same VM is run on various devices/environments without much changes. Now you proposing to drop it, and use what instead? LLVM? What is LLVM? Here , read: The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. Despite its name, LLVM has little to do with traditional virtual machines, though it does provide helpful libraries that can be used to build them. --- So, it means that someone has to reimplement the whole thing on top of LLVM, just to make the very same thing again, which we having already. Good idea. Now go and do it.
Have fun, Guido Stepken
2012/2/14 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 14.02.2012 um 20:10 schrieb Igor Stasenko
What is LLVM? Here , read:
The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. Despite its name, LLVM has little to do with traditional virtual machines, though it does provide helpful libraries that can be used to build them.
Read: http://fosdem.org/2012/interview/david-chisnall tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
Some crashes on Windows here too with Pharo 1.3 and CogVM from Pharo website. Especially when the .image is on a windows network share. Laurent On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
Known Windows oplocks problem. Disable caching, re-activate oplocks 2012/2/14 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>
Some crashes on Windows here too with Pharo 1.3 and CogVM from Pharo website. Especially when the .image is on a windows network share.
Laurent
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stéphane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult. I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult.
No, that's a second step. Put it in Jenkins is the third. Do the first step: do a new OneClick BY HAND, with latest Cog, even without "pharo blessing". That way new comers will not run away from pharo beacuse it crashes.
I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
You cannot say that, because I updated the One-Click distribution less than a month ago: https://github.com/renggli/builder/commit/7623726096db2e3fa58eefe267c62ba171... People using this code get the latest available CogVM. The problem is that Pharo maintains its own unmaintained fork. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch
On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:22 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
You cannot say that, because I updated the One-Click distribution less than a month ago:
https://github.com/renggli/builder/commit/7623726096db2e3fa58eefe267c62ba171...
People using this code get the latest available CogVM. The problem is that Pharo maintains its own unmaintained fork.
It is not unmaintained. Now if really few people help then igor cannot do everything. And since eliot does not care about the effort we spent to make sure that people can compile their own vms then we have to life with that. Also the pharo vms has important fixes for us.
Lukas
-- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch
On 14 February 2012 20:22, Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com> wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
You cannot say that, because I updated the One-Click distribution less than a month ago:
 https://github.com/renggli/builder/commit/7623726096db2e3fa58eefe267c62ba171...
People using this code get the latest available CogVM. The problem is that Pharo maintains its own unmaintained fork.
Huh? See the build history: https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog-Unix/ last build 26 Jan https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/StackVM-Mac-Cocoa-blessed/ again, last build 28 Jan. Here just a list of changes in latest builds: (you can find them here: https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog%20Git%20Tracker%20%28blesse... ) Changes #26 (Jan 26, 2012 5:33:21 PM) replaced spaces with tabs â camillobruni / detail #25 (Jan 26, 2012 5:18:48 PM) added new pharo scropt â camillobruni / detail - fixed configuraiton to open a Workspace with example configurations â camillobruni / detail trying to fix issues with the command line arguments â camillobruni / detail more work on the image script and the howto â camillobruni / detail tried to implemention dir_lookupEntry for Cococa OSX â camillobruni / detail extended howto with osx gcc change â camillobruni / detail fixed back opengl changes â camillobruni / detail fixed VM path, returning bundlepath with app name â camillobruni / detail implemented direEntryLookup and refactored a bit the source code â camillobruni / detail more howto â camillobruni / detail minor change in the HOWTO â camillobruni / detail undoing accidental changes â camillobruni / detail #23 (Jan 25, 2012 8:06:27 PM) removed deprecated calls to recordKeystroke â guillermopolito / detail removed unused comment â guillermopolito / detail removed old code â guillermopolito / detail removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail removed lot of debug only code â guillermopolito / detail removed temporal file â guillermopolito / detail removed more debug printfs â guillermopolito / detail formatted the code â guillermopolito / detail little style change â guillermopolito / detail added mappings to numeric keypad â guillermopolito / detail added comments to unicode conversion â guillermopolito / detail more comments â guillermopolito / detail For the full list of changes in VM , visit https://gitorious.org/cogvm/blessed/commits/master but just don't say bullshit like unmaintained unmaintained VM. Now if people do not downloading it, do not report problems, and sticking to Eliot's VMs, it makes no sense to do anything. You know well, that we cannot force people to use it or not. (i triggered new build now just to check if everything ok). -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 February 2012 20:22, Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com> wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
You cannot say that, because I updated the One-Click distribution less than a month ago:
https://github.com/renggli/builder/commit/7623726096db2e3fa58eefe267c62ba171...
People using this code get the latest available CogVM. The problem is that Pharo maintains its own unmaintained fork.
Huh?
See the build history: https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog-Unix/
last build 26 Jan
https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/StackVM-Mac-Cocoa-blessed/ again, last build 28 Jan.
Here just a list of changes in latest builds: (you can find them here:
https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog%20Git%20Tracker%20%28blesse... ) Changes #26 (Jan 26, 2012 5:33:21 PM)
replaced spaces with tabs â camillobruni / detail
#25 (Jan 26, 2012 5:18:48 PM)
added new pharo scropt â camillobruni / detail - fixed configuraiton to open a Workspace with example configurations â camillobruni / detail trying to fix issues with the command line arguments â camillobruni / detail more work on the image script and the howto â camillobruni / detail tried to implemention dir_lookupEntry for Cococa OSX â camillobruni / detail extended howto with osx gcc change â camillobruni / detail fixed back opengl changes â camillobruni / detail fixed VM path, returning bundlepath with app name â camillobruni / detail implemented direEntryLookup and refactored a bit the source code â camillobruni / detail more howto â camillobruni / detail minor change in the HOWTO â camillobruni / detail undoing accidental changes â camillobruni / detail
#23 (Jan 25, 2012 8:06:27 PM)
removed deprecated calls to recordKeystroke â guillermopolito / detail removed unused comment â guillermopolito / detail removed old code â guillermopolito / detail removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail removed lot of debug only code â guillermopolito / detail removed temporal file â guillermopolito / detail removed more debug printfs â guillermopolito / detail formatted the code â guillermopolito / detail little style change â guillermopolito / detail added mappings to numeric keypad â guillermopolito / detail added comments to unicode conversion â guillermopolito / detail more comments â guillermopolito / detail
For the full list of changes in VM , visit https://gitorious.org/cogvm/blessed/commits/master
but just don't say bullshit like unmaintained unmaintained VM.
The substantive change is the ephemeron changes. I'm not convinced that this code is correct. I'm convinced that the approach is wrong. See my postings on using the format word to encode ephemeronness.
Now if people do not downloading it, do not report problems, and sticking to Eliot's VMs, it makes no sense to do anything. You know well, that we cannot force people to use it or not.
(i triggered new build now just to check if everything ok).
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- best, Eliot
On 15 February 2012 00:03, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 February 2012 20:22, Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com> wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
You cannot say that, because I updated the One-Click distribution less than a month ago:
https://github.com/renggli/builder/commit/7623726096db2e3fa58eefe267c62ba171...
People using this code get the latest available CogVM. The problem is that Pharo maintains its own unmaintained fork.
Huh?
See the build history: https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog-Unix/
last build 26 Jan
https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/StackVM-Mac-Cocoa-blessed/ again, last build 28 Jan.
Here just a list of changes in latest builds: (you can find them here:
https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog%20Git%20Tracker%20%28blesse... ) Changes #26 (Jan 26, 2012 5:33:21 PM)
  replaced spaces with tabs â camillobruni / detail
#25 (Jan 26, 2012 5:18:48 PM)
  added new pharo scropt â camillobruni / detail   - fixed configuraiton to open a Workspace with example configurations â camillobruni / detail   trying to fix issues with the command line arguments â camillobruni / detail   more work on the image script and the howto â camillobruni / detail   tried to implemention dir_lookupEntry for Cococa OSX â camillobruni / detail   extended howto with osx gcc change â camillobruni / detail   fixed back opengl changes â camillobruni / detail   fixed VM path, returning bundlepath with app name â camillobruni / detail   implemented direEntryLookup and refactored a bit the source code â camillobruni / detail   more howto â camillobruni / detail   minor change in the HOWTO â camillobruni / detail   undoing accidental changes â camillobruni / detail
#23 (Jan 25, 2012 8:06:27 PM)
  removed deprecated calls to recordKeystroke â guillermopolito / detail   removed unused comment â guillermopolito / detail   removed old code â guillermopolito / detail   removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail   removed dead code â guillermopolito / detail   removed lot of debug only code â guillermopolito / detail   removed temporal file â guillermopolito / detail   removed more debug printfs â guillermopolito / detail   formatted the code â guillermopolito / detail   little style change â guillermopolito / detail   added mappings to numeric keypad â guillermopolito / detail   added comments to unicode conversion â guillermopolito / detail   more comments â guillermopolito / detail
For the full list of changes in VM , visit https://gitorious.org/cogvm/blessed/commits/master
but just don't say bullshit like unmaintained unmaintained VM.
The substantive change is the ephemeron changes. Â I'm not convinced that this code is correct. Â I'm convinced that the approach is wrong. Â See my postings on using the format word to encode ephemeronness.
I remember that, Eliot. And i agreed with you that it is not optimal. You also told back then, that you will introduce it soon, so i suspended any activities in that regard. I can revert that code from VM in no time, if you think it is the one, which makes VM unstable. Which i doubt, since ephemerons is not in use by image, so the code in question simply does an empty run, resulting same semantics as in your branch. But i will check it once more. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote: students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult.
No, that's a second step. Put it in Jenkins is the third. Do the first step: do a new OneClick BY HAND, with latest Cog, even without "pharo blessing". That way new comers will not run away from pharo beacuse it crashes.
Where can I find the correct VMs? I can give a try. Now I did not do it before and I'm really busy.
I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
On 14 February 2012 20:04, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
students in the lecture on windows downloaded cogvm I do not from where⦠and used pharo1.3 and some experienced crashes.
This has been reported at least 10 times per week since the last 6 months. The VMs of the one click are FUC.. old and buggy. If nobody have time to make a new one click (we are all busy), please please please, remove it from the website. We give so much bad impression. It is worst than having no one click.
It was known before we released one-click, that VM is not perfect. But we cannot delay the release because of that. It would make things only worse. Because every time you going to release, you can find one or another issue which needs to be fixed before release. What is important to understand, that we don't releasing a final product, the Pharo releases are milestones on continuing development. Yes, every release having issues and they cannot be perfect ,and there are always will be things which left not done/not fixed etc etc. So we need to accept that.
We will have to brand these vms because the situation is getting difficult.
No, that's a second step. Put it in Jenkins is the third. Do the first step: do a new OneClick BY HAND, with latest Cog, even without "pharo blessing". That way new comers will not run away from pharo beacuse it crashes.
And why you think that new one will be more stable that old? i just recently built a windows VM. it crashes occasionally/randomly in some bitblt primitive(s) during drawing a progress bar when installing MC package, i have no idea why. I suspect a memory corruption somewhere when new classes installed in a system , or existing classes are modified by MC, and bitblt prim is just a consequence of it. Which not saying that we should not address this issue(s), but that latest version is not necessary more stable than older one. To guarantee that there are no regressions like that, we need to setup good testing infrastructure around VM. And while we're still not there.. but will be soon.
I do not imagine how we can track these problems.
Stef
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
participants (7)
-
Eliot Miranda -
Guido Stepken -
Igor Stasenko -
laurent laffont -
Lukas Renggli -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Stéphane Ducasse