About fonts (again)
Hi when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts. Stef
It does not make sense. We should have nice font all the time. Thanks RMoD for taking care of this _crucial_ aspect of the system Alexandre On Apr 21, 2014, at 2:32 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi
when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts.
Stef
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
One question is why do still have the disable free type fonts option? This was useful when free type was still in development, but I think now it is no longer useful. Or are there still use cases for it? Doru On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi
when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts.
Stef
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
2014-04-22 6:30 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
One question is why do still have the disable free type fonts option? This was useful when free type was still in development, but I think now it is no longer useful. Or are there still use cases for it?
Doru
At the risk of repeating myself (that's maybe 10 times I say it here, but it's like shouting in the desert...) , freetype is pretty inefficient because it displays characters one by one (call a primitive foreach and every character). So if you are on a not so fast device, strike fonts are still a good option because the primitive displays groups of characters in a batch. So please, please, please, for once before breaking things that works and replacing them by a thing that works only partially, do it the other way around: - first make it fully work (that means add a new freetype primitive displaying batch of chars) - then drop any historical bits you want Of course, you are free to completely drop support for slow machines, but it must be consciously.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi
when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts.
Stef
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
Hi, I think my message generated a misunderstanding. I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts. Is that wrong? Cheers, Doru On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2014-04-22 6:30 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
One question is why do still have the disable free type fonts option?
This was useful when free type was still in development, but I think now it is no longer useful. Or are there still use cases for it?
Doru
At the risk of repeating myself (that's maybe 10 times I say it here, but it's like shouting in the desert...) , freetype is pretty inefficient because it displays characters one by one (call a primitive foreach and every character). So if you are on a not so fast device, strike fonts are still a good option because the primitive displays groups of characters in a batch. So please, please, please, for once before breaking things that works and replacing them by a thing that works only partially, do it the other way around: - first make it fully work (that means add a new freetype primitive displaying batch of chars) - then drop any historical bits you want
Of course, you are free to completely drop support for slow machines, but it must be consciously.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi
when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts.
Stef
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
2014-04-22 8:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts.
Is that wrong?
Well, look at it this way: who should be able to have the final word on what side of the speed/prettiness dichotomy Pharo should be: the user or the system? Cheers, Sergi
I do not see what this has to do with anything. Right now we are offering the possibility to not be able to load FreeType fonts and this leads to buggy behavior when the user starts playing with that toggle. I fail to see why we need the option in the first place. All I am saying is that we should remove the option from the settings browser and simply have the freetype fonts enable all the time. This means that you will still be able to load the bitmap fonts without problems just like before. And it is our (as builders of Pharo) responsibilities to design. The user can say if he likes it or not and in our case can even try to contribute. But, this does not take the design responsibility from our shoulders. Doru On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Sergi Reyner <sergi.reyner@gmail.com>wrote:
2014-04-22 8:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing
for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts.
Is that wrong?
Well, look at it this way: who should be able to have the final word on what side of the speed/prettiness dichotomy Pharo should be: the user or the system?
Cheers, Sergi
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
On 22/4/14 14:19, Tudor Girba wrote:
I do not see what this has to do with anything.
Right now we are offering the possibility to not be able to load FreeType fonts and this leads to buggy behavior when the user starts playing with that toggle.
In fact this is buggy even without that. The system reports strike and freetype fonts when we are in ft mode :(
I fail to see why we need the option in the first place. All I am saying is that we should remove the option from the settings browser and simply have the freetype fonts enable all the time. This means that you will still be able to load the bitmap fonts without problems just like before.
And it is our (as builders of Pharo) responsibilities to design. The user can say if he likes it or not and in our case can even try to contribute. But, this does not take the design responsibility from our shoulders.
Doru
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Sergi Reyner <sergi.reyner@gmail.com <mailto:sergi.reyner@gmail.com>> wrote:
2014-04-22 8:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>:
I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts.
Is that wrong?
Well, look at it this way: who should be able to have the final word on what side of the speed/prettiness dichotomy Pharo should be: the user or the system?
Cheers, Sergi
-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
"Every thing has its own flow"
Why is this buggy? Right now, the meaning of the checkbox is to allow the user to have FT in addition to bitmap fonts. That is why I say we should just drop the checkbox altogether and we have solved a source of problems. We can rethink the infrastructure for Pharo 4. Doru On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 9:30 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
On 22/4/14 14:19, Tudor Girba wrote:
I do not see what this has to do with anything.
Right now we are offering the possibility to not be able to load FreeType fonts and this leads to buggy behavior when the user starts playing with that toggle.
In fact this is buggy even without that. The system reports strike and freetype fonts when we are in ft mode :(
I fail to see why we need the option in the first place. All I am saying is that we should remove the option from the settings browser and simply have the freetype fonts enable all the time. This means that you will still be able to load the bitmap fonts without problems just like before.
And it is our (as builders of Pharo) responsibilities to design. The user can say if he likes it or not and in our case can even try to contribute. But, this does not take the design responsibility from our shoulders.
Doru
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Sergi Reyner <sergi.reyner@gmail.com>wrote:
2014-04-22 8:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing
for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts.
Is that wrong?
Well, look at it this way: who should be able to have the final word on what side of the speed/prettiness dichotomy Pharo should be: the user or the system?
Cheers, Sergi
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
2014-04-22 21:30 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo@free.fr>:
On 22/4/14 14:19, Tudor Girba wrote:
I do not see what this has to do with anything.
Right now we are offering the possibility to not be able to load FreeType fonts and this leads to buggy behavior when the user starts playing with that toggle.
In fact this is buggy even without that. The system reports strike and freetype fonts when we are in ft mode :(
Are you questionning about updateFontsAtImageStartup? The reason for not wanting to update fonts at image startup was to avoid loosing time at startup. http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2009-June/009358.html If this was a valuable setting at that time, what makes it not valuable now? Or are you questionning about presence of FreeType fonts in FontChooser? I have FT on but updateFTAtStartup off, and for seeing the FT fonts I have to open the dialog, press update button, close the dialog, reopen, and only then I can see the FreeType fonts. Is that the bug you're after?
I fail to see why we need the option in the first place. All I am saying is that we should remove the option from the settings browser and simply have the freetype fonts enable all the time. This means that you will still be able to load the bitmap fonts without problems just like before.
And it is our (as builders of Pharo) responsibilities to design. The user can say if he likes it or not and in our case can even try to contribute. But, this does not take the design responsibility from our shoulders.
Doru
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Sergi Reyner <sergi.reyner@gmail.com>wrote:
2014-04-22 8:21 GMT+01:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
I am not arguing for dropping of bitmap fonts at all. I am only arguing
for removing the option of not having freetype. People on slow devices will still be able to use the bitmap fonts.
Is that wrong?
Well, look at it this way: who should be able to have the final word on what side of the speed/prettiness dichotomy Pharo should be: the user or the system?
Cheers, Sergi
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
Hi nicolas I agree with you :). My goal is not to drop strike fonts because I think that the code is working and it can be useful for some people. I just want to make sure that StandardFonts (TextStyle and others...) does not mess up FreeType and StrikeFonts. We got a lot of problems with this for our clients. Stef On 22/4/14 09:09, Nicolas Cellier wrote:
2014-04-22 6:30 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>:
One question is why do still have the disable free type fonts option? This was useful when free type was still in development, but I think now it is no longer useful. Or are there still use cases for it?
Doru
At the risk of repeating myself (that's maybe 10 times I say it here, but it's like shouting in the desert...) , freetype is pretty inefficient because it displays characters one by one (call a primitive foreach and every character). So if you are on a not so fast device, strike fonts are still a good option because the primitive displays groups of characters in a batch. So please, please, please, for once before breaking things that works and replacing them by a thing that works only partially, do it the other way around: - first make it fully work (that means add a new freetype primitive displaying batch of chars) - then drop any historical bits you want
Of course, you are free to completely drop support for slow machines, but it must be consciously.
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 7:32 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
Hi
when freetype is on do you think that it makes sense to have strikeFont proposed as default fonts? Like it is done right now, I get bitmapVera even if I want to see FreeType fonts.
Stef
-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
"Every thing has its own flow"
participants (5)
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Nicolas Cellier -
Sergi Reyner -
stepharo -
Tudor Girba