[pharo-project/pharo-core] ec7b0e: 60137
Branch: refs/heads/6.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: ec7b0efd3372758bb785c059576ee2264986477b https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/ec7b0efd3372758bb785c0595... Author: Jenkins Build Server <board@pharo-project.org> Date: 2016-07-06 (Wed, 06 Jul 2016) Changed paths: M Epicea.package/EpClassRemoval.class/instance/accessing/behaviorAffectedName.st M Epicea.package/extension/Class/instance/asEpiceaRingDefinition.st M Graphics-Canvas.package/FormCanvas.class/instance/other/warpFrom_toRect_.st M Graphics-Display Objects.package/Form.class/instance/analyzing/rectangleEnclosingPixelsNotOfColor_.st M Graphics-Display Objects.package/Form.class/instance/scaling%2C rotation/magnify_by_smoothing_.st M Graphics-Primitives.package/BitBlt.class/class/deprecated/current.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamed_in_.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamed_in_put_.st M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamesForContext_.st A OpalCompiler-Tests.package/OCContextTempMappingTest.class/instance/test - block arguments/testAccessingBlockArgumentNoneOptimizedBlock.st A OpalCompiler-Tests.package/OCContextTempMappingTest.class/instance/test - block arguments/testAccessingBlockArgumentOptimizedBlock.st R ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script60136.st A ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script60137.st R ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60136.st A ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60137.st M ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st Log Message: ----------- 60137 18690 deprecated BitBlt class>>#current https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18690 17434 debugger missing block local var for optimized blocks https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17434 18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 18608 Impossible to delete a class https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18608 http://files.pharo.org/image/60/60137.zip
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems. Marcus
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems. but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results) not turning it off. in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image). Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way? Esteban
On 06 Jul 2016, at 12:13, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems. but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results) not turning it off. in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
This is how it's currently implemented but it doesn't solve all issues: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName...
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
On 06 Jul 2016, at 12:13, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
On 06 Jul 2016, at 13:51, Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote: yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems. but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results) not turning it off. in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
This is how it's currently implemented but it doesn't solve all issues: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName...
Yes, that is the core issue. We need a reliable, non-blocking way to determine (or discover) if we have network or not. Then we can react properly at the application level.
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
On 06 Jul 2016, at 12:13, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
I have to add here⦠solution is bad, because now projects are not shown EVEN if I activate it in settings :(
On 06 Jul 2016, at 12:28, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems. but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results) not turning it off. in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
On 06 Jul 2016, at 12:13, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 10:12, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
Who vote to put it in? Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze." So it would be nice to care take of such aspect. I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences. Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off. Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I'll try once more to explain. You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog. Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No. For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly. Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases. Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE ! So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering. The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it. Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
+1 On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:19 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
If the root cause is a blocking system call e.g.... "NetNameResolver class>>#addressForName: sometimes hangs when there is no network" https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?18281& this seems very hard to fix at the Image level, except maybe doing in-Image name resolution instead of relying on the system library. I found this... http://forum.world.st/ANN-DnsClient-More-protocol-fun-td2303225.html and... http://www.squeaksource.com/dnsclient.html http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html cheers -ben
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Hi Ben, On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 2:19 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
If the root cause is a blocking system call e.g.... "NetNameResolver class>>#addressForName: sometimes hangs when there is no network" https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?18281&
this seems very hard to fix at the Image level, except maybe doing in-Image name resolution instead of relying on the system library. I found this... http://forum.world.st/ANN-DnsClient-More-protocol-fun-td2303225.html
It'll be child's play when we have the threaded FFI.
and... http://www.squeaksource.com/dnsclient.html http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html
cheers -ben
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some
network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in
any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction
and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to
on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is
remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no
vote.
-- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky. Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me. For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on? Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage. So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically. Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on. I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often) and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only. Stef Le 6/7/16 à 20:19, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system. It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem. This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care. Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off. We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
On 08 Jul 2016, at 11:21, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Le 6/7/16 à 20:19, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Le 8/7/16 à 11:44, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.
Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop arguing.
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
On 08 Jul 2016, at 11:21, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Le 6/7/16 à 20:19, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
On 08 Jul 2016, at 12:21, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Le 8/7/16 à 11:44, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.
Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop arguing.
Well, you won, the feature is gone.
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
On 08 Jul 2016, at 11:21, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Le 6/7/16 à 20:19, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care. Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop arguing. Well, you won, the feature is gone. No it is not gone. Update your preferences and help fixing the real problem and we will put it back.
You see I produce Spotter videos for the mooc. Do you think that I should have spent all this energy for something that I do not like. Now we should be able to critic features. Stef
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
On 08 Jul 2016, at 11:21, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Le 6/7/16 à 20:19, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
On 06 Jul 2016, at 18:14, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
On 06 Jul 2016, at 09:52, GitHub <noreply@github.com> wrote:
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674 We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
participants (8)
-
Andrei Chis -
Ben Coman -
Eliot Miranda -
Esteban Lorenzano -
GitHub -
Marcus Denker -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe