The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about design and how to do things has moved from the mailing lists to Slack. As we're using the free version, and cannot afford to use the commercial version, we have no long-time storage of the design discussions. This contrasts with our mailing lists, that have a long-term archive. There was some discussion about this, and I'm not aware of that resulting in an accessible, easy to access archive. Also, we have not succeeded in summarizing design discussions from slack to the mailing lists. The resulting gap in design information forms an enormous long-term risk for our community. Without the design discussions it is much more difficult to later understand why decisions were taken. We cannot afford to let this short-term ease-of-use destroy Pharo's community history, and thereby Pharo. Let us fix this. Stephan
Hi Stephan,
On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:27, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about design and how to do things has moved from the mailing lists to Slack. As we're using the free version, and cannot afford to use the commercial version, we have no long-time storage of the design discussions. This contrasts with our mailing lists, that have a long-term archive. There was some discussion about this, and I'm not aware of that resulting in an accessible, easy to access archive. Also, we have not succeeded in summarizing design discussions from slack to the mailing lists. The resulting gap in design information forms an enormous long-term risk for our community. Without the design discussions it is much more difficult to later understand why decisions were taken. We cannot afford to let this short-term ease-of-use destroy Pharo's community history, and thereby Pharo. Let us fix this.
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list. But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that. Last days we were experimenting with @kilon again on use discord as a substitute and I find that for now it works really well and with a bit of work we can have all what you want: discord incorporated a search function (and they do not have the 10k limit) and we could do a bot that logs everything that happens there and stores that into gists (or whatever, but gists seems like a good idea). With this we would have enhanced the availability of those discussions (it remains the fact that immediate communication is worst organised than mails, but well⦠we need to try) Esteban
Stephan
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Stephan,
On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:27, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about design and how to do things has moved from the mailing lists to Slack. As we're using the free version, and cannot afford to use the commercial version, we have no long-time storage of the design discussions. This contrasts with our mailing lists, that have a long-term archive. There was some discussion about this, and I'm not aware of that resulting in an accessible, easy to access archive. Also, we have not succeeded in summarizing design discussions from slack to the mailing lists. The resulting gap in design information forms an enormous long-term risk for our community. Without the design discussions it is much more difficult to later understand why decisions were taken. We cannot afford to let this short-term ease-of-use destroy Pharo's community history, and thereby Pharo. Let us fix this.
Yes I agree with your concerns.
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list. But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that.
Yes this is too expensive for the Pharo consortium ?
Last days we were experimenting with @kilon again on use discord as a substitute and I find that for now it works really well and with a bit of work we can have all what you want: discord incorporated a search function (and they do not have the 10k limit) and we could do a bot that logs everything that happens there and stores that into gists (or whatever, but gists seems like a good idea).
With this we would have enhanced the availability of those discussions (it remains the fact that immediate communication is worst organised than mails, but well⦠we need to try)
and move all the community on discord ? Or use an open-source slack like : https://about.mattermost.com/ and host our own chat server. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On 10 Feb 2017, at 11:28, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Stephan,
On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:27, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about design and how to do things has moved from the mailing lists to Slack. As we're using the free version, and cannot afford to use the commercial version, we have no long-time storage of the design discussions. This contrasts with our mailing lists, that have a long-term archive. There was some discussion about this, and I'm not aware of that resulting in an accessible, easy to access archive. Also, we have not succeeded in summarizing design discussions from slack to the mailing lists. The resulting gap in design information forms an enormous long-term risk for our community. Without the design discussions it is much more difficult to later understand why decisions were taken. We cannot afford to let this short-term ease-of-use destroy Pharo's community history, and thereby Pharo. Let us fix this.
Yes I agree with your concerns.
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list. But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that.
Yes this is too expensive for the Pharo consortium ?
yes it is. Is just not prepared for open source communities like ours.
Last days we were experimenting with @kilon again on use discord as a substitute and I find that for now it works really well and with a bit of work we can have all what you want: discord incorporated a search function (and they do not have the 10k limit) and we could do a bot that logs everything that happens there and stores that into gists (or whatever, but gists seems like a good idea).
With this we would have enhanced the availability of those discussions (it remains the fact that immediate communication is worst organised than mails, but well⦠we need to try)
and move all the community on discord ?
this is what I would like to propose, because...
Or use an open-source slack
the problem with this is that we have to host it⦠and then is more problems for maintenance, etc. Esteban
like : https://about.mattermost.com/ and host our own chat server.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
I am frustated by this too and indeed we need a way to keep the messages. I am about done with my wrapping of LibStrophe in Pharo with , which provides a XMPP/Jabber client to Pharo. So, if someone can activate the XMPP gateway on our Slack instance, we will have a way to archive the contents (and possibly post a kind of digest into a mailing list). https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201727913-Connect-to-Slack-over-IRC... Phil On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10 Feb 2017, at 11:28, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Stephan,
On 10 Feb 2017, at 10:27, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about design and how to do things has moved from the mailing lists to Slack. As we're using the free version, and cannot afford to use the commercial version, we have no long-time storage of the design discussions. This contrasts with our mailing lists, that have a long-term archive. There was some discussion about this, and I'm not aware of that resulting in an accessible, easy to access archive. Also, we have not succeeded in summarizing design discussions from slack to the mailing lists. The resulting gap in design information forms an enormous long-term risk for our community. Without the design discussions it is much more difficult to later understand why decisions were taken. We cannot afford to let this short-term ease-of-use destroy Pharo's community history, and thereby Pharo. Let us fix this.
Yes I agree with your concerns.
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list. But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that.
Yes this is too expensive for the Pharo consortium ?
yes it is. Is just not prepared for open source communities like ours.
Last days we were experimenting with @kilon again on use discord as a
substitute and I find that for now it works really well and with a bit of work we can have all what you want: discord incorporated a search function (and they do not have the 10k limit) and we could do a bot that logs everything that happens there and stores that into gists (or whatever, but gists seems like a good idea).
With this we would have enhanced the availability of those discussions
(it remains the fact that immediate communication is worst organised than mails, but well⦠we need to try)
and move all the community on discord ?
this is what I would like to propose, because...
Or use an open-source slack
the problem with this is that we have to host it⦠and then is more problems for maintenance, etc.
Esteban
like : https://about.mattermost.com/ and host our own chat server.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
I have been pushing for Discord because a) There is no need to host and maintain as Esteban said b) There a ton of communities already using it and its by far the second most mature chat client after Slack c) It has a very powerful Python API.... yes I know.... I know its no Pharo but still it makes it very easy to make bots that automate a lot of staff. I am using a bot that fetches RSS feeds (Although not sure how well this is working) connects to the reddit forum and of course fetches git commits d) The team listens to its users e) for personal reason.... all my favorite software (Blender, Unreal etc) is using it I am also making my own bot . I could try to add a way for the bot to connect the mailing list with the Discord channel turn the mailing lists discussions to Discord discussions and vice versa but I have not done this before so no promises. I do have find a website that turns pretty much anything to webhooks which is what Discord uses (probably Slack too) https://ifttt.com/discover I could do the same with Slack , meaning to send Slack messages to Discord and Discord to Slack, I think I found one bot that already does this. In short we can unite everything under one roof and let people keep using whatever people feel comfortable with (Slack, mailing lists, world.st forum, reddit , google hangouts , youtube , github and anything with webhooks or some form of web API) Also the Bot could store its own log even in the unlikely scenario of a nuclear explosion in Discord servers we wont lose our valuable data. Though I think I saw somewhere that Discord allows to backup and export the data so that may be proven unnecessary. On the other hand I will have to find a way to host my bot , but that is not a big deal , the bot is a simple python application and there are a ton of websites which offer hosting for python applications for free. Its getting there but will need time. Also my library Atlas can be used to access the APIs of all these chat software, Slack and Discord included, because Atlas allows you to use python libraries from inside Pharo. So its possible to have tools in the image for those of you that you love never having to leave the image that take advantage of these technologies. I wont be doing this though because a) porting APIs is a project by itself b) most of the code I find is python code and that makes it an easy copy paste approach (the vast majority of it is GPL or MIT licensed)
I just saw Blender developers seems to use IRC (#blendercoders @ irc.freenode.net), 187 users. Ruby too at #ruby 917 users Le 10/02/2017 à 12:29, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
e) for personal reason.... all my favorite software (Blender, Unreal etc) is using it
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Actually your numbers are pretty low #blendercoders indeed has 187 , but those are the actual C coders working on the blender source (which I do not do), so its an equivalent of our phraro-dev, the equivalent of pharo-users is #blender with 360 members and the #blenderpython with 70 members which are people like me that work on blender addons using python (all these are online users of course) BUT.... the blender community is enormous, its theorised since its impossible to know for sure that is around 1 million users, both professional and hobbists. As a result of this the community is highly fragmanted as all community of similar size are because they are impossible to be contained. In Discord I am on 2 blender servers one has 175 online users and the other 75 online users. As such I have little reason anymore to use IRC and especially Slack (the only thing in Slack of interest to me is Pharo). Also I am a game developer and Discord has become the default online chat tool for game developers and gamers aline the same way Slack has become the default online chat tool for developers. Unreal server I am using on Discord has over 1200 users online , countless dedicate channels and a great deal of Unreal game developers use Blender so for me Discord by far the best choice for what I am doing. Also a problem with IRC is that you see people that are online but they never say a word so they are online but always AFK. In Discord if you are afk there is a yellow icon to indicate that , from what I am seeing people participating in Discord tend to be far more active than people participating in IRC. On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 6:46 PM Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu> wrote:
I just saw Blender developers seems to use IRC (#blendercoders @ irc.freenode.net), 187 users. Ruby too at #ruby 917 users
Le 10/02/2017 à 12:29, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
e) for personal reason.... all my favorite software (Blender, Unreal etc) is using it
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list. But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that.
Yes this is too expensive for the Pharo consortium ?
It is per active member⦠which is defined as âhas logged in the last 14 daysâ. We have 322 members. No idea how many are active according to that definition. Fot 322 it would be: $8 per user per month. Which means $2576 per month or $25772 per year (taking the special yearly price into account). Marcus
There is a special price for non-profits organization:
The Slack for Nonprofits program offers eligible organizations a *free upgrade* to our Standard plan for teams of up to 250 members. For eligible teams above that size, we offer an 85% discount on the Standard plan.
With 322 users it means that we still have to pay... See https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/204368833-Slack-for-Nonprofits for more information. On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 1:18 PM, denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
I share many of what you say⦠but in the other point of view, Slack as
really worked and there is a lot more happening now in Slack + mailing list than what was before just in mailing list.
But most of that is lost because of Slack policies (also Slack pricing model is impossible for a community as ours), and we need to find a solution for that.
Yes this is too expensive for the Pharo consortium ?
It is per active member⦠which is defined as âhas logged in the last 14 daysâ. We have 322 members. No idea how many are active according to that definition.
Fot 322 it would be: $8 per user per month. Which means $2576 per month or $25772 per year (taking the special yearly price into account).
Marcus
Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of Slack over other instant messaging system like IRC or Jabber? Hilaire Le 10/02/2017 à 10:27, Stephan Eggermont a écrit :
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board. For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop. Phil On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu> wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance but what are the advantages of Slack over other instant messaging system like IRC or Jabber?
Hilaire
Le 10/02/2017 à 10:27, Stephan Eggermont a écrit :
The past year we have started using Slack to communicate in real-time about Pharo. It has nice (mobile) clients and makes it easy to share pictures and snippets. As a result a large part of the communication about
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key. Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff. Esteban A. Maringolo
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style. Phil Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
If you miss it so much we have something much better Github wikis, we never use Each of our books is hosted in a Github repo and each repo always comes with its own wiki using very simple markdown as everything else in Github You do not have content but only a snippet of code to offer ? No problem we have you covered there too create a gist for it , link it in the wiki and we will add it back to book. Gists even offer their own version control which means you can keep working and improving your code snippet for years to come without braking the workflow. Then its a question of copy pasting the contents to pillar and adding them in our books , or if you do not mind the extra work write it in pillar directly and add it to the relevant book All books can be added to CI and generate automagically html pages for direct access , we do this already with PBE 5. Our Pharo "wiki" is easier to use and far more powerful than anything Squeak ever had, no offence intended of course to the original creators and maintainers of Squeak wiki. Also github offers hosting of static webpages we could have a website hosted as github repo made with pillar that link to all wikis, gists and book artifacts. I can create this in an hour of work its not big deal. I would have done this myself but Stef already has added the books to Pharo.org which I find is more or less the same thing. On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:15 PM philippe.back@highoctane.be < philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
Am still finding useful stuff on Squeak wiki, sorry. The point of a Wiki is to capture discussions over a given topic and make it grow into something more structured over time. Like original c2 wiki. Phil On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
If you miss it so much we have something much better
Github wikis, we never use
Each of our books is hosted in a Github repo and each repo always comes with its own wiki using very simple markdown as everything else in Github
You do not have content but only a snippet of code to offer ? No problem we have you covered there too create a gist for it , link it in the wiki and we will add it back to book. Gists even offer their own version control which means you can keep working and improving your code snippet for years to come without braking the workflow.
Then its a question of copy pasting the contents to pillar and adding them in our books , or if you do not mind the extra work write it in pillar directly and add it to the relevant book
All books can be added to CI and generate automagically html pages for direct access , we do this already with PBE 5.
Our Pharo "wiki" is easier to use and far more powerful than anything Squeak ever had, no offence intended of course to the original creators and maintainers of Squeak wiki.
Also github offers hosting of static webpages we could have a website hosted as github repo made with pillar that link to all wikis, gists and book artifacts. I can create this in an hour of work its not big deal. I would have done this myself but Stef already has added the books to Pharo.org which I find is more or less the same thing.
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:15 PM philippe.back@highoctane.be < philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
I fail to see the problem here On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 1:52 AM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Am still finding useful stuff on Squeak wiki, sorry. The point of a Wiki is to capture discussions over a given topic and make it grow into something more structured over time. Like original c2 wiki.
Phil
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
If you miss it so much we have something much better
Github wikis, we never use
Each of our books is hosted in a Github repo and each repo always comes with its own wiki using very simple markdown as everything else in Github
You do not have content but only a snippet of code to offer ? No problem we have you covered there too create a gist for it , link it in the wiki and we will add it back to book. Gists even offer their own version control which means you can keep working and improving your code snippet for years to come without braking the workflow.
Then its a question of copy pasting the contents to pillar and adding them in our books , or if you do not mind the extra work write it in pillar directly and add it to the relevant book
All books can be added to CI and generate automagically html pages for direct access , we do this already with PBE 5.
Our Pharo "wiki" is easier to use and far more powerful than anything Squeak ever had, no offence intended of course to the original creators and maintainers of Squeak wiki.
Also github offers hosting of static webpages we could have a website hosted as github repo made with pillar that link to all wikis, gists and book artifacts. I can create this in an hour of work its not big deal. I would have done this myself but Stef already has added the books to Pharo.org which I find is more or less the same thing.
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:15 PM philippe.back@highoctane.be < philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
2017-02-10 21:09 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com>:
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 1:52 AM phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Am still finding useful stuff on Squeak wiki, sorry. The point of a Wiki is to capture discussions over a given topic and make it grow into something more structured over time. Like original c2 wiki.
I fail to see the problem here
It's not a problem, it's a dynamics thing. GitHub isn't the same, I haven't seen big wikis hosted there for a long time. In the long run Pareto appears, and only a fraction of the users create most of the content, but it is still useful. In my previous job we used Squeak's Swiki for years and then we migrated it to Atlassian's Confluence (due to better user support), and it is amazing how powerful and undervalued a wiki is. If haven't used the c2 wiki or the squeak wiki then you haven't experienced what it meant, at that time, to find everything there, or expand articles with your own content. It was really useful, c2 still is. Wiki's value is like compound interest, you only perceive the benefits in the mid to long term. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo
On 14 February 2017 at 02:39, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
... In my previous job we used Squeak's Swiki for years and then we migrated it to Atlassian's Confluence (due to better user support), and it is amazing how powerful and undervalued a wiki is.
Wiki's value is like compound interest, you only perceive the benefits in the mid to long term.
Regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
+1 I would add that we got the most benefit out of our wikis when one of the developers volunteered to be something of a "librarian" and help others structure and reference the information. Cheers, Alistair
It's not a problem, it's a dynamics thing. GitHub isn't the same, I haven't seen big wikis hosted there for a long time. In the long run Pareto appears, and only a fraction of the users create most of the content, but it is still useful.
There is a very good reason for this. The rise of Github pages made it more polished to display documentation to users. Not only it gives you the full power of html and js , it also works well with doc string documentation systems like Sphinx. http://www.sphinx-doc.org/en/stable/ Both Squeak and Pharo lack such tools. Personally I prefer Github pages and doc string system. I am not a fan of wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen. In the end however one uses what one find more suitable to the way he or she thinks. But for me having the documentation inside the code instead of separately plus a nice polished github page to display it is the way I prefer to work for my projects. For Pharo, Pillar, plus GitBooks is hard to beat https://www.gitbook.com/book/kilon/ephestos/details
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:51:23PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen.
To me the lack of organization is in the nature of a wiki. It's like a place to be explored. Must be said C2's Smalltalk content is rather meh last I looked a few years ago. <obPharoContent> My personal wiki has ~800 pages. Already there are nooks and crannies that I've not visited in a while. Naturally, Pharo is the tool I am using to help me navigate. Pierce
The thing that annoy me the most with C2 is that almost each time I googled Smalltalk when I wasstill a beginner with Pharo and Smalltalk this came up often http://wiki.c2.com/?WhyIsSmalltalkDead But yes I agree, its nice to have a place to put information and never worry about it getting delete. On the matter of Slack, my Discord bot , lighthouse has evolved to message the online chat with replies to the mailing list which gave a good look inside how chat bots work. Esteban made me admin in Slack so the next step is to have the bot connect to Slack and copy the Slack messages to Discord chat , which means you wont need a Slack plan, because Discord never deletes messages. This way we can use Discord as a backup for our Slack messages and the bot could also copy the messages to a file , I am considering SQLite which we support, so that we never lose the content. Problem solved and it also solves the problem of fragmentation. The mailing list is already connected to Discord via my bot, Slack will also connect to discord via my bot and pretty much anything else can be brought into this hub so everyone can keep using Slack or whatever way he or she prefers to communicate without the fear of fragmentation. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:07 PM Pierce Ng <pierce@samadhiweb.com> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 11:51:23PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
wiki. They end messy and very badly documented. Especially c2 is quite a mess, probably the worst wiki I have ever seen.
To me the lack of organization is in the nature of a wiki. It's like a place to be explored. Must be said C2's Smalltalk content is rather meh last I looked a few years ago.
<obPharoContent> My personal wiki has ~800 pages. Already there are nooks and crannies that I've not visited in a while. Naturally, Pharo is the tool I am using to help me navigate.
Pierce
On 13/02/17 16:39, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote:
If haven't used the c2 wiki or the squeak wiki then you haven't experienced what it meant, at that time, to find everything there, or expand articles with your own content. It was really useful, c2 still is.
The squeak wiki is also still very valuable. Lot's of broken links, but also lots of snippets of explanation of why things are as they are. It was essential for getting my Morphic understanding together. Stephan
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions. Uko
On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com <mailto:emaringolo@gmail.com>> a écrit : 2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> <phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be>>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
On 12 February 2017 at 09:22, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
Uko
Uko, thanks for mentioning this, I wasn't aware of it, and will try and contribute a bit to build the knowledge base (I don't believe email or chat (slack, discord, etc.) even with a searchable history, can replace a wiki for documentation). There's been quite a bit of discussion in the past about in-image documentation vs external documentation (e.g. wikis, books, etc.). While I like the idea of having the documentation in image, the delays and cost of getting documentation in to the core image currently makes it largely impractical to have the same level of contribution as a wiki. Recently I've seen in a couple of places people mentioning that github and/or gitlab allow simple editing of files in the web interface and directly generating pull requests. Given that the class comment is stored in a separate file, could this help facilitate the development of in-image documentation? If there's no one that knows more about this than me, and there is some interest, I'm happy to investigate a bit further. Cheers, Alistair
remember that we have this http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com stef On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to
manage permissions.
Uko
On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Hi Stef, On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:
remember that we have this
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com
stef
But write access requires an account (according to http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook). I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev) and didn't get a response. Cheers, Alistair
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
Uko
On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
Mariano should know the password I asked. Stef
Hi Stef,
On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:
remember that we have this
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com
stef
But write access requires an account (according to http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook). I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev) and didn't get a response.
Cheers, Alistair
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
Uko
On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
May be dale remember the password because mariano don't and my keychain neither. On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:09 PM, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:
Mariano should know the password I asked.
Stef
Hi Stef,
On 13 February 2017 at 01:17, stepharong <stepharong@free.fr> wrote:
remember that we have this
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com
stef
But write access requires an account (according to http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/Contribute/ContributeToPharoBook). I requested an account last year (10 May 2016 to pharo-dev) and didn't get a response.
Cheers, Alistair
On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 23:22:11 +0100, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>
wrote:
I try to use StackOverflow documentation to document some Pharo stuff. Itâs very limited, but it has all the collaborative stuff from StackOverflow, so somehow I believe there is less effort needed to manage permissions.
Uko
On 10 Feb 2017, at 21:14, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
I miss the Squeak wiki Pharo style.
Phil
Le 10 févr. 2017 19:06, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo@gmail.com> a écrit :
2017-02-10 14:59 GMT-03:00 phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be>:
Mass adoption and hyper reduced friction to get people on board.
For me: I have 10+ slack teams in my slack client and there is really no point in having more clients on the desktop.
+1 to this. This is key.
Maybe what we're missing is a simple wiki to collect the shared knowledge, recipes, and other stuff.
Esteban A. Maringolo
-- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
participants (15)
-
Alistair Grant -
denker -
Dimitris Chloupis -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Esteban Lorenzano -
François Stephany -
Hilaire -
phil＠highoctane.be -
philippe.back＠highoctane.be -
Pierce Ng -
Serge Stinckwich -
Stephan Eggermont -
Stephane Ducasse -
stepharong -
Yuriy Tymchuk