Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
I dont think that this is so easy. My product smallCharts uses the PDF implementation as its primary vector graphics output format - I rely on it. What I want is to make the implementation of the spec available to the community. And I would like others to use it and maybe contribute to some of the many uncovered areas of the spec (pixmaps, encryption to name a few). But I dont want to lose control. I dont like several incompatible development streams for different dialects. And I would like to integrate contributions myself. One way to do this is to have the primary implementation in VisualWorks and a reliable, not too intrusive way of exporting it to other dialects. If such an export mechanism would be available, I could do that. But I dont have time to develop one. Any thoughts about such a procedure? Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez Gesendet: Samstag, 28. August 2010 19:31 An: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 18:42 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I have a Smalltalk only (with help of zlib) implementation of PDF (1.7) in VisualWorks.
I'd love to have a port for Pharo but not the time to do it...
I thought of releasing it as open source.
Please do it, and with MIT license would be perfect because it will avoid a lot of problems in the future.
Either publish it as a file out in your page or in a mail, or create a project in squeaksource with read or read/write access for everyone and someone will jump and will work out the porting to pharo.
The main thing is to let the code out as MIT and then everything will be easy.
Thanks
Ideas? Need?
Cheers, Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Torsten Bergmann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. August 2010 08:31 An: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
Hehe, too much legal terms to me.....What we could do?
Can modify,
create a new package, etc?
The license of SPDF was not open enough for me in the past - thats why I created the binding to the Haru PDF Library:
http://www.squeaksource.com/HPDF.html http://libharu.sourceforge.net
This requires FFI and an external shared library.
If you want to have a Smalltalk only solution I think you have to digg in the PDF spec and write an own. Assumed you have lots of time to spend on bits and bytes and writing nice unit tests for PDF streams.
Similar to iText for Java, this allows you change the license and block your government later ;), see the story of Bruno Lowagie [1]
There are also other PDF alternatives beside HPDF and SPDF (see [2])
Bye Torsten
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/20/open-source-developer-intends -to-block-belgian-government-from-using-his-technology-over-ta x-dispute/ [2] http://www.seaside.st/documentation/pdfs
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
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Hi christian
I dont think that this is so easy.
My product smallCharts uses the PDF implementation as its primary vector graphics output format - I rely on it.
What I want is to make the implementation of the spec available to the community. And I would like others to use it and maybe contribute to some of the many uncovered areas of the spec (pixmaps, encryption to name a few)
But I dont want to lose control. I dont like several incompatible development streams for different dialects.
Well you will have to pay the price for that: make sure that you do not rely on VW specific behavior. Build a decent VW exporter (to me it is easier to work in pharo and export in VW but I may be wrong). See below
And I would like to integrate contributions myself.
What you can do is have a look at what people are doing, but do you have the time for that if you do not have the time to export it to pharo? Do you have tests?
One way to do this is to have the primary implementation in VisualWorks and a reliable, not too intrusive way of exporting it to other dialects. If such an export mechanism would be available, I could do that.
You have a simple squeak format exporter that we patched (:= instead of _) and use for one shot export when we migrate our old Moose library but this is not like you can click and load in pharo and it works if the code was not develop with that in mind and even there I do not know. Now what would be the license of your code?
But I dont have time to develop one.
Any thoughts about such a procedure?
Why you do not ask people to help and port it. Then using packages you may control the addition in another package and when this is stable enough in pharo you get it in VW. Now in any case if you publish it under MIT/BSD/Apache anybody can just fork it and create another stream. May be there are other licenses. now I think that licenses can be a mess and you can just lose time with them. So it is up to you. For me I would like to have a good PDF outputer and I imagine that it requires work like with anything that requires a bit of effort so joining forces is always a good situation. Because we are a tiny community. What you can also play is - let your version grow and get good in pharo, cherry pick what you want for VW, - it gives you the time to see on one day you want to reuse for projects in pharo because with Cog I imagine that some people may be interested by pharo for their dev even if not everything can be reduced to speed. :) Stef
Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez Gesendet: Samstag, 28. August 2010 19:31 An: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 18:42 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I have a Smalltalk only (with help of zlib) implementation of PDF (1.7) in VisualWorks.
I'd love to have a port for Pharo but not the time to do it...
I thought of releasing it as open source.
Please do it, and with MIT license would be perfect because it will avoid a lot of problems in the future.
Either publish it as a file out in your page or in a mail, or create a project in squeaksource with read or read/write access for everyone and someone will jump and will work out the porting to pharo.
The main thing is to let the code out as MIT and then everything will be easy.
Thanks
Ideas? Need?
Cheers, Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Torsten Bergmann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. August 2010 08:31 An: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
Hehe, too much legal terms to me.....What we could do?
Can modify,
create a new package, etc?
The license of SPDF was not open enough for me in the past - thats why I created the binding to the Haru PDF Library:
http://www.squeaksource.com/HPDF.html http://libharu.sourceforge.net
This requires FFI and an external shared library.
If you want to have a Smalltalk only solution I think you have to digg in the PDF spec and write an own. Assumed you have lots of time to spend on bits and bytes and writing nice unit tests for PDF streams.
Similar to iText for Java, this allows you change the license and block your government later ;), see the story of Bruno Lowagie [1]
There are also other PDF alternatives beside HPDF and SPDF (see [2])
Bye Torsten
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/20/open-source-developer-intends -to-block-belgian-government-from-using-his-technology-over-ta x-dispute/ [2] http://www.seaside.st/documentation/pdfs
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 20:31 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I dont think that this is so easy.
My product smallCharts uses the PDF implementation as its primary vector graphics output format - I rely on it.
What I want is to make the implementation of the spec available to the community. And I would like others to use it and maybe contribute to some of the many uncovered areas of the spec (pixmaps, encryption to name a few).
But I dont want to lose control.
This is always a risk in any true open source software. Of course there are ways to avoid losing control even with very permissive licenses like MIT, like hearing your contributors, your porters, etc. That way the need to do a fork is minimized. If you discard good code for bad reasons you're most surely betting for a fork. Now, you can work only in VisualWorks, and some people can port (that is not the same as fork) to other platforms. In the way they can send you patches that make the original upstream version less platform dependent so that the porting is easier with time to new platforms, this is good for the project because can reach more platforms if it is really open in the development and contribution process.
I dont like several incompatible development streams for different dialects. And I would like to integrate contributions myself.
This don't need to happen, there are libraries (Sport, Grease) that put a layer between platform specifics and your code so that is easier for maintainers of the different ports to stay compatible. But again, the principal reason of forking is contribution process issues and not platform specific issues.
One way to do this is to have the primary implementation in VisualWorks and a reliable, not too intrusive way of exporting it to other dialects. If such an export mechanism would be available, I could do that. But I dont have time to develop one.
I think that this will be solved when the actual problem arrives. Don't worry about this right now. Just put a working version for VW and someone (I for sure) will step forward to contribute the porting to pharo.
Any thoughts about such a procedure?
Finally, as the community is involved, more and more features that you haven't had time to do will be done. A big project begins with a little project. Cheers
Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez Gesendet: Samstag, 28. August 2010 19:31 An: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 18:42 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I have a Smalltalk only (with help of zlib) implementation of PDF (1.7) in VisualWorks.
I'd love to have a port for Pharo but not the time to do it...
I thought of releasing it as open source.
Please do it, and with MIT license would be perfect because it will avoid a lot of problems in the future.
Either publish it as a file out in your page or in a mail, or create a project in squeaksource with read or read/write access for everyone and someone will jump and will work out the porting to pharo.
The main thing is to let the code out as MIT and then everything will be easy.
Thanks
Ideas? Need?
Cheers, Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Torsten Bergmann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. August 2010 08:31 An: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
Hehe, too much legal terms to me.....What we could do?
Can modify,
create a new package, etc?
The license of SPDF was not open enough for me in the past - thats why I created the binding to the Haru PDF Library:
http://www.squeaksource.com/HPDF.html http://libharu.sourceforge.net
This requires FFI and an external shared library.
If you want to have a Smalltalk only solution I think you have to digg in the PDF spec and write an own. Assumed you have lots of time to spend on bits and bytes and writing nice unit tests for PDF streams.
Similar to iText for Java, this allows you change the license and block your government later ;), see the story of Bruno Lowagie [1]
There are also other PDF alternatives beside HPDF and SPDF (see [2])
Bye Torsten
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/20/open-source-developer-intends -to-block-belgian-government-from-using-his-technology-over-ta x-dispute/ [2] http://www.seaside.st/documentation/pdfs
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
+1 Stef On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:22 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez wrote:
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 20:31 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I dont think that this is so easy.
My product smallCharts uses the PDF implementation as its primary vector graphics output format - I rely on it.
What I want is to make the implementation of the spec available to the community. And I would like others to use it and maybe contribute to some of the many uncovered areas of the spec (pixmaps, encryption to name a few).
But I dont want to lose control.
This is always a risk in any true open source software. Of course there are ways to avoid losing control even with very permissive licenses like MIT, like hearing your contributors, your porters, etc. That way the need to do a fork is minimized. If you discard good code for bad reasons you're most surely betting for a fork. Now, you can work only in VisualWorks, and some people can port (that is not the same as fork) to other platforms. In the way they can send you patches that make the original upstream version less platform dependent so that the porting is easier with time to new platforms, this is good for the project because can reach more platforms if it is really open in the development and contribution process.
I dont like several incompatible development streams for different dialects. And I would like to integrate contributions myself.
This don't need to happen, there are libraries (Sport, Grease) that put a layer between platform specifics and your code so that is easier for maintainers of the different ports to stay compatible. But again, the principal reason of forking is contribution process issues and not platform specific issues.
One way to do this is to have the primary implementation in VisualWorks and a reliable, not too intrusive way of exporting it to other dialects. If such an export mechanism would be available, I could do that. But I dont have time to develop one.
I think that this will be solved when the actual problem arrives. Don't worry about this right now. Just put a working version for VW and someone (I for sure) will step forward to contribute the porting to pharo.
Any thoughts about such a procedure?
Finally, as the community is involved, more and more features that you haven't had time to do will be done. A big project begins with a little project.
Cheers
Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez Gesendet: Samstag, 28. August 2010 19:31 An: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
El sáb, 28-08-2010 a las 18:42 +0200, Christian Haider escribió:
I have a Smalltalk only (with help of zlib) implementation of PDF (1.7) in VisualWorks.
I'd love to have a port for Pharo but not the time to do it...
I thought of releasing it as open source.
Please do it, and with MIT license would be perfect because it will avoid a lot of problems in the future.
Either publish it as a file out in your page or in a mail, or create a project in squeaksource with read or read/write access for everyone and someone will jump and will work out the porting to pharo.
The main thing is to let the code out as MIT and then everything will be easy.
Thanks
Ideas? Need?
Cheers, Christian
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] Im Auftrag von Torsten Bergmann Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. August 2010 08:31 An: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Betreff: [Pharo-project] Fwd: About SPDF
Hehe, too much legal terms to me.....What we could do?
Can modify,
create a new package, etc?
The license of SPDF was not open enough for me in the past - thats why I created the binding to the Haru PDF Library:
http://www.squeaksource.com/HPDF.html http://libharu.sourceforge.net
This requires FFI and an external shared library.
If you want to have a Smalltalk only solution I think you have to digg in the PDF spec and write an own. Assumed you have lots of time to spend on bits and bytes and writing nice unit tests for PDF streams.
Similar to iText for Java, this allows you change the license and block your government later ;), see the story of Bruno Lowagie [1]
There are also other PDF alternatives beside HPDF and SPDF (see [2])
Bye Torsten
[1] http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/20/open-source-developer-intends -to-block-belgian-government-from-using-his-technology-over-ta x-dispute/ [2] http://www.seaside.st/documentation/pdfs
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
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participants (3)
-
Christian Haider -
Miguel Enrique Cobá MartÃnez -
Stéphane Ducasse