On 29 Jan 2014, at 11:32, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian@flowingconcept.com> wrote:

I hope we’re not making it harder than it should for fear to feedback

It has already been concluded that fogbugz was a mistake. It’s just not made for an open source project. Now moving will be *a lot* of work and we have not even found a replacement that is scriptable. We first need to release Pharo3 before we sink indefinite amounts of time into this. Marcus

On 29 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo@gmail.com> wrote:

I actually proposed few replacement one month ago inside the RMoD team, nobody answered except “Fogbugz is bad” , and nobody tried what I proposed.

Of course this was exactly before christmas when I was really dead… I really couldn’t do anything anymore. I *needed* to do nothing for a week, there was no alternative. And after all the other important things… Marcus

Le 29/01/2014 12:49, Marcus Denker a écrit :

On 29 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I actually proposed few replacement one month ago inside the RMoD team, nobody answered except “Fogbugz is bad” , and nobody tried what I proposed.

Of course this was exactly before christmas when I was really dead… I really couldn’t do anything anymore. I *needed* to do nothing for a week, there was no alternative.

And luckily for all of us, you weren't really dead ;) Thierry

And after all the other important things…

Marcus

-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

I know I am a small fish surrounded by pharo sharks, I know that I code in pharo just for the fun of coding and you guys make a living out of it and pharo is your life but I would like to make some points and please take them with a grain of salt. a) I dont think overworking yourselves will benefit Pharo. I have to only take a look at my father whos even at the age of 70 is still a workaholic to see the negative side of things. And believe me things can seriously get bad. You health is 1000 times more important than Pharo. b) I think its a bad idea that Pharo keeps including new libraries. I dont believe there is enough manpower to maintain a large array of Pharo libraries inside the image. I fear that Pharo is going the direction of Java but you are not Oracle or Sun and we are no Java community to support you. Its my opinion there must be a discussion of cleaning the code and reducing the size and complexity of the existing libraries instead of keep adding new exciting cool features. I love Pharo but I would like to see it doing a similar clean up and reduction as Cuis. I think it will reduce your work. I am closely following your modularation efforts and the effort to make removable part of Pharo that were not removable in the past. We all want a better Pharo but its more important to have an easy to manage Pharo. c) Issue tracker wise, since you already considering moving to Git, I think that Github could make an excellent place for issue reporting. I see amber people using it to a great effect so far. And why not even bring support ( outside pharo as third party library) for bitbucket etc. On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>wrote:

and I answered saying that IMO we should not change before releasing... so not completely true that you didn't get any answer :)

On 29 Jan 2014, at 12:49, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:

...

On 29 Jan 2014, at 12:45, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo@gmail.com>

wrote:

...

...

I actually proposed few replacement one month ago inside the RMoD team, nobody answered except "Fogbugz is bad" , and nobody tried what I

proposed.

...

...

Of course this was exactly before christmas when I was really dead... I really couldn't do anything anymore. I *needed* to do nothing for a week, there was no alternative.

And after all the other important things...

Marcus

On 29 Jan 2014, at 18:19, Pharo4Stef <pharo4Stef@free.fr> wrote:

Ben

- creating a company - being the head of a research group - HDR of noury - PhD of Nick - Papers there and there - admin there and there - dealing with people - dealing with people - dealing with people - having a door always open - having a door always open - being second of a lab of 300 researchers - coding on boring stuff - working on projects - thinking about money for the team

How many people are doing this? How big is the team?

is a long list of duties before even thinking about Pharo.

So we must evaluate our energy before changing to a new architecture. And there are always pros and cons.

Evaluating for REAL a new bugtracker is not something that we do in one afternoon.

Yes I know, that is exactly why I did not send the mail this morning but more than a month ago.

And we do not do that two months before a release.

No indeed, but you do it the day after the release. And as you say, it does not take one afternoon to get an idea if it is good or not.

We do not change the commit tools either.

?? Ben

On 29 Jan 2014, at 18:52, Pharo4Stef <pharo4Stef@free.fr> wrote:

Still many different agendas busy time. It does not mean no interest it means that people are busy.

If we wait someone has nothing to do, it will never happen :)

But since we all know that we will not move before the release then there is not much point for people to look at them because they are busy. When we will decide that this is time to look then the right people will do it. And I was sad that we would have to throw away all the time you spend on it.

Except that if we want to change at the same time we release, we should start having a look now. And I do not care throwing away what I did, that’s life :P

Yes but again busy. VM, jenkins Mate PhD Papers coding Nautilus bug fixes everybody needs free cycles and since december none of us have. but this is orthogonal to no interest.

But it’s a matter of priority.

...

...

We do not change the commit tools either.

This was related to the git story

Again, if we want to change soon after the release we should not start to thing about it two month after. Ben

On Jan 29, 2014, at 9:33 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:

It has already been concluded that fogbugz was a mistake. It’s just not made for an open source project.

Now moving will be *a lot* of work and we have not even found a replacement that is scriptable.

We first need to release Pharo3 before we sink indefinite amounts of time into this.

Cool. I agree in the prioritisation. I have a couple of ideas about how to improve the whole thing I should blog about it to contribute to this healthy conversation keep the great wotk sebastian o/