Hi everyone, Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :) But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have. Cheers. Uko
We had this idea with Marcus, and I think itâs nice :) What would fit in that is if n gold-members vote for an issue as âweek fixedâ then itâs automatically integrated :) Ben On 04 Nov 2013, at 00:26, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
Cheers. Uko
On 04 Nov 2013, at 07:40, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo@gmail.com> wrote:
We had this idea with Marcus, and I think itâs nice :)
What would fit in that is if n gold-members vote for an issue as âweek fixedâ then itâs automatically integrated :) Yes, true. But my idea was originally oriented on bigger scales. For example to see that community wantâs traits improvements over git integration, or vice versa. I think that Jet Brains has something like that.
Uko
Ben
On 04 Nov 2013, at 00:26, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
Cheers. Uko
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement: - I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it Norbert
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
I think that if we want to have it, we have to make something simple with an option to create ideas and simple voting. If it will be used then we can extend it. Uko On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
I don't think our community ever lacked of ideas. It is primarily time/contributed work that is missing. It is too easy to have a quick opinion that is based only on my current mood. Should these guide the future development of pharo? That could do more harm than it helps. Nevertheless nice idea ;) Norbert
Am 04.11.2013 um 09:19 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
I think that if we want to have it, we have to make something simple with an option to create ideas and simple voting. If it will be used then we can extend it.
Uko
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:41, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
I don't think our community ever lacked of ideas. It is primarily time/contributed work that is missing. I think that you are right on this. Thatâs why I think we need this ideas portal. So all the ideas are collected in one place and you can spot and when someone has time to contribute ha can check what ideas have the most amount of votes, etcâ¦
Uko
It is too easy to have a quick opinion that is based only on my current mood. Should these guide the future development of pharo? That could do more harm than it helps. Nevertheless nice idea ;)
Norbert
Am 04.11.2013 um 09:19 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
I think that if we want to have it, we have to make something simple with an option to create ideas and simple voting. If it will be used then we can extend it.
Uko
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
I agree too, at worse this poll will show that Pharo is not abandonware and a community that takes seriously popular feature requests. I would also love to see a progress bar per feature request or WIP features. I am not talking here 100 features, even 10 will be enough to say that we are moving forward. In irc I had several people pop in asking why pharo chose smalltalk and is it not smalltalk "dead" etc ? So definetly this could help kick the smalltalk stereotype from the mind of newcomers and show them we are not big, but none the less quite active and open minded community. On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:41, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
I don't think our community ever lacked of ideas. It is primarily time/contributed work that is missing. I think that you are right on this. Thatâs why I think we need this ideas portal. So all the ideas are collected in one place and you can spot and when someone has time to contribute ha can check what ideas have the most amount of votes, etcâ¦
Uko
It is too easy to have a quick opinion that is based only on my current mood. Should these guide the future development of pharo? That could do more harm than it helps. Nevertheless nice idea ;)
Norbert
Am 04.11.2013 um 09:19 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
I think that if we want to have it, we have to make something simple with an option to create ideas and simple voting. If it will be used then we can extend it.
Uko
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com :
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past. Alexandre
Le 04-11-2013 à 6:58, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> a écrit :
I agree too, at worse this poll will show that Pharo is not abandonware and a community that takes seriously popular feature requests.
I would also love to see a progress bar per feature request or WIP features. I am not talking here 100 features, even 10 will be enough to say that we are moving forward. In irc I had several people pop in asking why pharo chose smalltalk and is it not smalltalk "dead" etc ? So definetly this could help kick the smalltalk stereotype from the mind of newcomers and show them we are not big, but none the less quite active and open minded community.
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:41, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
I don't think our community ever lacked of ideas. It is primarily time/contributed work that is missing. I think that you are right on this. Thatâs why I think we need this ideas portal. So all the ideas are collected in one place and you can spot and when someone has time to contribute ha can check what ideas have the most amount of votes, etcâ¦
Uko
It is too easy to have a quick opinion that is based only on my current mood. Should these guide the future development of pharo? That could do more harm than it helps. Nevertheless nice idea ;)
Norbert
Am 04.11.2013 um 09:19 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
I think that if we want to have it, we have to make something simple with an option to create ideas and simple voting. If it will be used then we can extend it.
Uko
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
2013/11/4 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>
Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past.
To me trying to dissociate Smalltalk from Pharo is like trying to dissociate Smalltalk from VisualWorks (aka "Cincom Smalltalk"). Or worst... ANSI C from C++. I still mention Smalltalk, and I promote Pharo as "an active Smalltalk dialect". Maybe it will be better to promote it plainly as Pharo... Esteban A. Maringolo
On 04 Nov 2013, at 22:13, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
2013/11/4 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com> Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past.
To me trying to dissociate Smalltalk from Pharo is like trying to dissociate Smalltalk from VisualWorks (aka "Cincom Smalltalk"). Or worst... ANSI C from C++.
I still mention Smalltalk, and I promote Pharo as "an active Smalltalk dialect".
Maybe it will be better to promote it plainly as Pharoâ¦
I just say that Pharo is what had to happen with Smalltalk in last 30 years. We can think about Pharo in Smalltalk like Scala in Java. But Java had versions, and Smalltalk is treated just as only 80th year frozen snapshot. Iâd say that Pharo is a Smalltalk of 2013 year. Oh, yes, but in public itâs better to say that Pharo is completely different ;)
Esteban A. Maringolo
I think now Pharo as Pharo. It stands on its own get inspired by the past, inventing the future ;) how that sounds ? On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 22:13, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
2013/11/4 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>
Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past.
To me trying to dissociate Smalltalk from Pharo is like trying to dissociate Smalltalk from VisualWorks (aka "Cincom Smalltalk"). Or worst... ANSI C from C++.
I still mention Smalltalk, and I promote Pharo as "an active Smalltalk dialect".
Maybe it will be better to promote it plainly as Pharoâ¦
I just say that Pharo is what had to happen with Smalltalk in last 30 years. We can think about Pharo in Smalltalk like Scala in Java. But Java had versions, and Smalltalk is treated just as only 80th year frozen snapshot. Iâd say that Pharo is a Smalltalk of 2013 year. Oh, yes, but in public itâs better to say that Pharo is completely different ;)
Esteban A. Maringolo
Sounds like I should get back to work :) On 04 Nov 2013, at 23:19, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
I think now Pharo as Pharo. It stands on its own get inspired by the past, inventing the future ;)
how that sounds ?
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 22:13, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
2013/11/4 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com> Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past.
To me trying to dissociate Smalltalk from Pharo is like trying to dissociate Smalltalk from VisualWorks (aka "Cincom Smalltalk"). Or worst... ANSI C from C++.
I still mention Smalltalk, and I promote Pharo as "an active Smalltalk dialect".
Maybe it will be better to promote it plainly as Pharoâ¦
I just say that Pharo is what had to happen with Smalltalk in last 30 years. We can think about Pharo in Smalltalk like Scala in Java. But Java had versions, and Smalltalk is treated just as only 80th year frozen snapshot. Iâd say that Pharo is a Smalltalk of 2013 year. Oh, yes, but in public itâs better to say that Pharo is completely different ;)
Esteban A. Maringolo
Pharo is Pharo. And we should promote it like that. http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo Doru On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:19 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
I think now Pharo as Pharo. It stands on its own get inspired by the past, inventing the future ;)
how that sounds ?
On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>wrote:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 22:13, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
2013/11/4 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>
Why do you mention Smalltalk at all actually? In my classes, I simply say that Pharo is inspired by Smalltalk, if I ever mention it It is easier to be convinced by the future than by the past.
To me trying to dissociate Smalltalk from Pharo is like trying to dissociate Smalltalk from VisualWorks (aka "Cincom Smalltalk"). Or worst... ANSI C from C++.
I still mention Smalltalk, and I promote Pharo as "an active Smalltalk dialect".
Maybe it will be better to promote it plainly as Pharoâ¦
I just say that Pharo is what had to happen with Smalltalk in last 30 years. We can think about Pharo in Smalltalk like Scala in Java. But Java had versions, and Smalltalk is treated just as only 80th year frozen snapshot. Iâd say that Pharo is a Smalltalk of 2013 year. Oh, yes, but in public itâs better to say that Pharo is completely different ;)
Esteban A. Maringolo
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Tudor Girba-2 wrote
Pharo is Pharo. And we should promote it like that.
It is inherently confusing because originally "Smalltalk" meant "a language/environment that's continually reinvented every 4 years based on the knowledge gained by the last iteration". Then, Smalltalk-80 was frozen and released, and "Smalltalk" was repurposed in the wider world as a shorthand for Smalltalk-80. So, one would be correct in saying that Pharo is Smalltalk in the original meaning, as the next iteration after 80 (although it missed the 4 year target by a bit ha ha). But, since the nearly universal understanding of "Smalltalk" is Smalltalk-80, the "more true" and practical choice is to say that Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired (i.e. inspired by Smalltalk-80, but clearly not Smalltalk-80). HTH. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719415.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I find this debate interesting... but a bit strange For me, Smalltalk-80 is what is inside the 80's book, and no implementation of Smalltalk was really Smalltalk-80 but something else (some principles plus a huge amount of code)... Pharo is no more different from Smalltalk-80 than all the others were, and, compared to Self, Pharo looks like a very tame variant :) So for me, Pharo will stay Pharo Smalltalk: a member of a large family which I had the pleasure to work in and use for a very long time, and in many different shapes but still respecting the same core principles. Thierry ________________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sean P. DeNigris [sean@clipperadams.com] Date d'envoi : mardi 5 novembre 2013 17:53 Ã : pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Feature request poll Tudor Girba-2 wrote
Pharo is Pharo. And we should promote it like that.
It is inherently confusing because originally "Smalltalk" meant "a language/environment that's continually reinvented every 4 years based on the knowledge gained by the last iteration". Then, Smalltalk-80 was frozen and released, and "Smalltalk" was repurposed in the wider world as a shorthand for Smalltalk-80. So, one would be correct in saying that Pharo is Smalltalk in the original meaning, as the next iteration after 80 (although it missed the 4 year target by a bit ha ha). But, since the nearly universal understanding of "Smalltalk" is Smalltalk-80, the "more true" and practical choice is to say that Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired (i.e. inspired by Smalltalk-80, but clearly not Smalltalk-80). HTH. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719415.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Goubier Thierry wrote
for me, Pharo will stay Pharo Smalltalk
That's valid, and just what I was speaking to. For us Smalltalkers, the tiny sliver of people who understand the subtleties, Pharo (in its current form, who knows in a year!) is quite reasonably described as Smalltalk - an evolution of Smalltalk-80. What the "inspired" part is about is the 99.99999999999% of the world who we're marketing to who think "Smalltalk = Smalltalk-80 = dead over-30-year-old language", which does not acknowledge Pharo's evolution and vision. It seems to me to be mostly a question of marketing and practicality. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719426.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 10:01 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr>wrote:
I find this debate interesting... but a bit strange
For me, Smalltalk-80 is what is inside the 80's book, and no implementation of Smalltalk was really Smalltalk-80 but something else (some principles plus a huge amount of code)... Pharo is no more different from Smalltalk-80 than all the others were, and, compared to Self, Pharo looks like a very tame variant :)
So for me, Pharo will stay Pharo Smalltalk: a member of a large family which I had the pleasure to work in and use for a very long time, and in many different shapes but still respecting the same core principles.
+1. Saying Pharo is not a Smalltalk is clearly absurd. At the risk of getting into a "what have the romans done for us?" thread, I'll say the following. The syntax is a superset of Smalltalk-80 (additions being literal ByteArrays, pragmas, class messages for creating weak arrays & ephemerons). The class library is a superset of Smalltalk-80 plus bug fixes. The only significant extensions are closures, exceptions and traits, but exceptions and traits, much like Dan Ingall's and Alan Borning's multiple inheritance implementation in Smalltalk-80 is done in the language. Closures are nicer than SMalltalk-80 blocks, but they're the same essential light-weight lambda idea with somewhat improved semantics, and all that was wrong with Smalltalk-80 blocks was the lack of reentrancy. A language like Newspeak is "Smalltalk-inspired". It differs significantly (semantics: nested classes, lexically-scoped outer sends, mixins, syntax: ability to elide self, initialization of temps with their declaration). I don't see the point of saying Pharo is not Smalltalk. I see the point of saying Pharo is not Squeak, and I thoguht that was the point. But saying Pharo is not Smalltalk is petty larceny.
Thierry
________________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sean P. DeNigris [sean@clipperadams.com] Date d'envoi : mardi 5 novembre 2013 17:53 Ã : pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Feature request poll
Tudor Girba-2 wrote
Pharo is Pharo. And we should promote it like that.
It is inherently confusing because originally "Smalltalk" meant "a language/environment that's continually reinvented every 4 years based on the knowledge gained by the last iteration". Then, Smalltalk-80 was frozen and released, and "Smalltalk" was repurposed in the wider world as a shorthand for Smalltalk-80. So, one would be correct in saying that Pharo is Smalltalk in the original meaning, as the next iteration after 80 (although it missed the 4 year target by a bit ha ha).
But, since the nearly universal understanding of "Smalltalk" is Smalltalk-80, the "more true" and practical choice is to say that Pharo is Smalltalk-inspired (i.e. inspired by Smalltalk-80, but clearly not Smalltalk-80).
HTH.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719415.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE you can stop around 2:10 -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):) The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html Thierry Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
you can stop around 2:10
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-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid, alien technology. What I care is that is well supported (bug wise), friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes), stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff) and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention the language nor the environment. I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;) On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr>wrote:
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)
The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html
Thierry
Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about
watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
you can stop around 2:10
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll- tp4718993p4719475.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
Hi Kilon, Dne 06. 11. 2013 12:00, piše kilon alios:
I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid, alien technology.
But you found Pharo because you were firstly interested in Smalltalk? If Pharo wouldn't be Smalltalk, would you still found it the same way as you did? Best regards Janko What I care is that is well supported (bug wise),
friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes), stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff) and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention the language nor the environment.
I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;)
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)
The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.__uk/whattheromans.html <http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html>
Thierry
Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=9foi342LXQE <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE>
you can stop around 2:10
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-__request-poll-__tp4718993p4719475.html <http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
Nope quite the contrary. I came to pharo because I was interested in emacs. I am doing coding for fun for 23 years now, I have used and messed around with most popular languages out there and in that time I never heard of Smalltalk nor I heard people mention it apart from a year or so ago someone in #emacs irc channel, after my complain that I love emacs (was using it for python coding) but I prefer GUIs he replied "maybe you should try squeak". And from squeak I came to pharo. I was python coder at the time and very happy one, so I had no intention of switching languages. I was just learning lisp because I wanted to find out what was the big deal with it since I knew several coders that made a lot of noise about it. I remained with it because for me Pharo unites two of my favorite development tools, python language and Delphi IDE. So no it was definitely not Smalltalk that brought me here and I suspect for most people applies the same apply since smalltalk is very unpopular. What brought me was emacs, python and delphi. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@eranova.si>wrote:
Hi Kilon,
Dne 06. 11. 2013 12:00, piše kilon alios:
I can only speak on behalf of newcomers as I am a newcomer myself, that I dont care if Pharo is smalltalk, a dialect, a byproduct , a hybrid, alien technology.
But you found Pharo because you were firstly interested in Smalltalk? If Pharo wouldn't be Smalltalk, would you still found it the same way as you did?
Best regards Janko
What I care is that is well supported (bug wise),
friendly community (forums), actively developed (updates/ bug fixes), stable enough, a breath of fresh air (who wants to use the same stuff) and sufficiently documented. See what I did there I did not even mention the language nor the environment.
I am happy that Pharo is all these things, the fact that is smalltalk or a dialect of it, is just a happy accident ;)
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:
Don't even need to follow the link to guess where that comes from :):):)
The text transcription: http://www.epicure.demon.co.__uk/whattheromans.html <http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html>
Thierry
Le 06/11/2013 01:28, Paul DeBruicker a écrit :
For whomever wonders what "what have the romans ever done for us" is about watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=9foi342LXQE <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE>
you can stop around 2:10
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/Feature-__request-poll-__tp4718993p4719475.html
<
http://forum.world.st/Feature-request-poll-tp4718993p4719475.html>
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
Am 04.11.2013 um 09:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu>:
On 04 Nov 2013, at 09:04, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2013-11-04, at 08:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 04.11.2013 um 00:26 schrieb Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>:
Hi everyone,
Iâve just got an idea (not something extra ordinary) to try out. Maybe we can make some kind of poll where community will be able to add new feature requests and vote for them. This way we can get an idea what is important to most of people. Eg. see how many votes are for the stateful traits and how many for the ability to quit image without prompt for saving. After writing last sentence Iâve figured out that itâs a good idea to be able also to vote down :)
But I think that this can be a nice experiment. Also as we are promoting and idea that âPharo is made by youâ, then new feature poll is nice to have.
I have this gut feeling there should something around three levels of acknowledgement:
- I like it - I need it really - I like or need it and will spend time doing it
yes, the "I am willing to contribute" is important!
or even, âI am willing to pay"
+1 Gets more important every day as I don't find time for contributing. Norbert
participants (15)
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Benjamin -
Camillo Bruni -
Eliot Miranda -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
GOUBIER Thierry -
Goubier Thierry
-
Janko Mivšek -
kilon alios -
Norbert Hartl -
Paul DeBruicker -
Sean P. DeNigris -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tudor Girba -
Yuriy Tymchuk