[Pharo-project] can this be done via modification to the Squeak/Pharo IDE?
I was wondering exactly the same thing! On 2012-Feb-27, at 18:46 , Lawson English wrote:
My two tiny cents: I have always demoed the liveness of Smalltalk with an inspector open on a window and dynamically add / delete/ modify its contents as you wish.. While the talk is all about animating a simple graphic, the thought and effort indeed is powerful. The real world applications are lot more complex and onerous than projected in this video. Given that I believe Smalltalk should be the first to have this liveness built in.. Not just as in live coding to dynamically impact a graphic but as in Etoys and the rest that respond live to change in the code parameters live just in time. the trouble with EToys has been its finesse, the applesque touch/ elegance is missing. Contrast that with morpho-physics.. its really cool, just needs a neater well rendered balls ( i mean with elegant image rendered morphs.. ) and you can show even more powerful liveness.. Scratch I believe takes the metaphor even further saying, you do not code, but drag and drop.. Its just that it has been video presented this effectively or viral.. Little tweaks I am sure it can be lot more interesting than this.. when we pick the inspector and play with its attributes, the one aspect that is missing is the modification to code.. but otherwise it is lot more fun than this.. But nontheless I believe the underlying principle is what I saw a striking parallel to for the Enterprise World: Coding needs to be fun, not the dreary code, complle , run cycle.. even in Smalltalk: code, debug, fix, it auto compiles, modifies cycle.. sometimes we do get caught in.. a) I began with the premises that there should be two Worlds and more: Development and runtime in the same Pharo image. So you code in one.. run in another and then experiment / inspect - modify have fun in another.. but come back to the dev panel to finish the code.. b) For Spec - UI Builder.. I was thinking in these lines: One panel has the code that you write and modify and the other panel reflects the change ( but for me as it compiles.. instantly.. ) Lots of stuff we do even for enterprise should get split and rendered visually like Lumiere in openGL on top.. linked to the table of data below.. rather than drab.. two D display of forms and data.. There is a great potential.. I just see js .. taking the credits for something Smalltalk has had for 30 + yrs.. On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Dave Mason <dmason@mason-rose.ca> wrote:
I was wondering exactly the same thing!
On 2012-Feb-27, at 18:46 , Lawson English wrote:
There's a program for Squeak that does that -- it's called Etoys...
You mean to innovate on principle? I thought this is what Pharo is all about :) Doru On 28 Feb 2012, at 00:46, Lawson English wrote:
Lawson
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Some battles are better lost than fought."
We do need the spit n polish videos to project and go viral. Marketing Pharo..!.. I believe this is true marketing... Should appear as simple as these projects too, simple one pane view of code that does magic on the other.. Pharo can do more than this.. Eg: Pick morpho - physics , render the most beautiful morphs one can, then from one pane show the list of code, that modifies the state of morphs its animation from the other, map code lines to some of the interaction on the view when intervention is done there. May it not just be a update: / changed: pair to chain the two...? Code on left generates a singleton view on right and as you change code it reifies the objects on the right and vice-versa with this dependency hook I would release my experimental modules, that I will continue to work towards code perfection, but will highlight the fun, ease and blur this programming is hard for layperson aspect. This is more to do with the pattern of learning most people have. I would say a lot of marketing has already happened with Pharo video/ screencasts, its time some of the easy but its cool, with complete aesthetics factored in, is put out for the viral effect. I will work towards this.. ! On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
You mean to innovate on principle? I thought this is what Pharo is all about :)
Doru
On 28 Feb 2012, at 00:46, Lawson English wrote:
Lawson
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Some battles are better lost than fought."
His presentation was impressive and refined, but he failed to mention a _most dynamic_ way to develop ideas... By closing one's eyes and simply imagining the possibilities without *any* burden of visible code. IOW, imagine without being constrained by the "how" or whether its even possible. THEN, note it down in words and try to implement it with a dynamic system like what he showed. To do that, his statement about a "direct connection" to the tools is something I do agree with 100%. A connection to the computing system via the cerebellum rather than the cerebrum, so that the cerebrum is free to focus on ideas rather than user-interface gestures. This is something that Squeak excels in, IMO. His comment on modality really emphasizes this point, and something I think folks even in this community could stand to listen: when I observe folks in their demo videos using Squeak or Pharo, almost every time I see folks browsing in a modal way. They have a big Package-Pane browser open and they're looking at one package, one class and one method at a time... They have to do about 4-5 clicks to "navigate" to a sent method, and 4-5 clicks to get back. This is way too slow for ideas to emerge. On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Lawson English <lenglish5@cox.net> wrote:
Lawson
Hi Chris,
His comment on modality really emphasizes this point, and something I think folks even in this community could stand to listen: when I observe folks in their demo videos using Squeak or Pharo, almost every time I see folks browsing in a modal way. They have a big Package-Pane browser open and they're looking at one package, one class and one method at a time... They have to do about 4-5 clicks to "navigate" to a sent method, and 4-5 clicks to get back. This is way too slow for ideas to emerge.
I'd love to learn how to be more effective in the Pharo image. Be great if you could share with us more effective ways to navigate around the code .... even in a video :-) Nick
On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:02 PM, Nick Ager wrote:
Hi Chris,
His comment on modality really emphasizes this point, and something I think folks even in this community could stand to listen: when I observe folks in their demo videos using Squeak or Pharo, almost every time I see folks browsing in a modal way. They have a big Package-Pane browser open and they're looking at one package, one class and one method at a time... They have to do about 4-5 clicks to "navigate" to a sent method, and 4-5 clicks to get back. This is way too slow for ideas to emerge.
I'd love to learn how to be more effective in the Pharo image.
use nautilus and groups! They are cool.
Be great if you could share with us more effective ways to navigate around the code .... even in a video :-)
Nick
Here is the video of Nautilus I made for ESUG [1] You can see groups in the video. But this video is a bit old, and Nautilus changed a lot in the mid time :) So soon I will do another video (but tonight I am too tired ^^) Ben [1] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24369478/ESUG-Nautilus-Award.m4v On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:02 PM, Nick Ager wrote:
Hi Chris,
His comment on modality really emphasizes this point, and something I think folks even in this community could stand to listen: when I observe folks in their demo videos using Squeak or Pharo, almost every time I see folks browsing in a modal way. They have a big Package-Pane browser open and they're looking at one package, one class and one method at a time... They have to do about 4-5 clicks to "navigate" to a sent method, and 4-5 clicks to get back. This is way too slow for ideas to emerge.
I'd love to learn how to be more effective in the Pharo image.
use nautilus and groups! They are cool.
Be great if you could share with us more effective ways to navigate around the code .... even in a video :-)
Nick
Nautilus is a good example of what can be done in pharo, starting with a little knowledge, a little love and seeing clear goal ahead. Instead of endless discussions on mailing list "can this be done" :) On 29 February 2012 23:42, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is the video of Nautilus I made for ESUG [1]
You can see groups in the video.
But this video is a bit old, and Nautilus changed a lot in the mid time :) So soon I will do another video (but tonight I am too tired ^^)
Ben
[1] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24369478/ESUG-Nautilus-Award.m4v
On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:02 PM, Nick Ager wrote:
Hi Chris,
His comment on modality really emphasizes this point, and something I think folks even in this community could stand to listen: Â when I observe folks in their demo videos using Squeak or Pharo, almost every time I see folks browsing in a modal way. Â They have a big Package-Pane browser open and they're looking at one package, one class and one method at a time... Â They have to do about 4-5 clicks to "navigate" to a sent method, and 4-5 clicks to get back. Â This is way too slow for ideas to emerge.
I'd love to learn how to be more effective in the Pharo image.
use nautilus and groups! They are cool.
Be great if you could share with us  more effective ways to navigate around the code .... even in a video :-)
Nick
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 01 Mar 2012, at 00:02, Igor Stasenko wrote:
Nautilus is a good example of what can be done in pharo, starting with a little knowledge, a little love and seeing clear goal ahead.
Indeed, but I would give Ben en co more credit than that, they did a great job !
Instead of endless discussions on mailing list "can this be done" :)
+10 Sven
On 1 March 2012 01:10, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> wrote:
On 01 Mar 2012, at 00:02, Igor Stasenko wrote:
Nautilus is a good example of what can be done in pharo, starting with a little knowledge, a little love and seeing clear goal ahead.
Indeed, but I would give Ben en co more credit than that, they did a great job !
No doubt this is an achivement. I was a witness of the creation process, hearing beeps and swearing, but not seeing what happens, because we sitting faced to each other :)
Instead of endless discussions on mailing list "can this be done" :)
+10
Sven
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Thanks guys :) Nautilus is an example of "just do something". With Stef and co, we got some ideas, some stuff that we want to experiment and then we tried. If you look, nothing is complicated or complex in Nautilus, but we got few good ideas from the beginning, goals to reach and good feedback to help keeping the motivation :) And even if I swore a few times, I learned a lot and I am really glad (and a bit proud) to see so many peoples enjoying Nautilus right now :) I hope I will have the time to keep this inertia and keep Nautilus always moving forward :) Thank you, Ben On Mar 1, 2012, at 12:27 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 1 March 2012 01:10, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> wrote:
On 01 Mar 2012, at 00:02, Igor Stasenko wrote:
Nautilus is a good example of what can be done in pharo, starting with a little knowledge, a little love and seeing clear goal ahead.
Indeed, but I would give Ben en co more credit than that, they did a great job !
No doubt this is an achivement. I was a witness of the creation process, hearing beeps and swearing, but not seeing what happens, because we sitting faced to each other :)
Instead of endless discussions on mailing list "can this be done" :)
+10
Sven
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 28 February 2012 01:46, Lawson English <lenglish5@cox.net> wrote:
Lawson
now after i found time to watch this video, i can comment on it :) Strangely enough, but i was driven by the very same idea when i first found squeak and joined community. I imagined the scene with animation, like a bullet leaving the gun and flying towards its victim, and i wanted to give an artist/designer/engineer to be able to stop the scene at any moment, interact with objects, like inspect their properties, allow them to change the code and then continue again. What i seen in those days, that smalltalk is much more enabling environment for doing that, than anything else! And i still keep that idea in mind, every time i doing something, be it VM, FFI or Morphic or OpenGL or bug fixes.. every single step gets me a bit closer to this.. even if i won't be able to work on this thing directly, i trying to push things in direction which would allow others to get to that point. So, i think Lawson, this is my answer to your question. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
now after i found time to watch this video, i can comment on it :)
Strangely enough, but i was driven by the very same idea when i first found squeak and joined community. I imagined the scene with animation, like a bullet leaving the gun and flying towards its victim, and i wanted to give an artist/designer/engineer to be able to stop the scene at any moment, interact with objects, like inspect their properties, allow them to change the code and then continue again.
What i seen in those days, that smalltalk is much more enabling environment for doing that, than anything else! And i still keep that idea in mind, every time i doing something, be it VM, FFI or Morphic or OpenGL or bug fixes.. every single step gets me a bit closer to this.. even if i won't be able to work on this thing directly, i trying to push things in direction which would allow others to get to that point.
You are great enabler. COntinue. Of course we want to do too much because this is exciting. So let us check and focus on the fundamentals. April will be a crazy month :) Stef
participants (10)
-
Benjamin -
Chris Muller -
Dave Mason -
Igor Stasenko -
Lawson English -
Nick Ager -
S Krish -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tudor Girba