[Pharo-project] OT: Dart
Hi, Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/ Cheers, -- Pavel
My first impression: - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top. And i bet it is implemented in C :D On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: Â - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar). But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about. Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system." Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images. frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>wrote:
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar).
But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about.
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4...
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Interesting, Do they (darters) see Amber? 2011/10/10 Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com>
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>wrote:
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar).
But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about.
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4...
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>wrote:
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar).
But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about.
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4...
You was Gilad's reply? Hi Mariano, On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianop...<https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/groups/unlock?_done=/a/dartlang.org...> @gmail.com> wrote:
So I wonder...is this a kind of Smalltalk image? what is similar and what different?
Better analog is a Strongtalk BST file. It contains the classes and compile-time constants, but no state. -- Cheers, Gilad And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
-- best, Eliot
On 10 October 2011 18:16, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: Â - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar).
But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about.
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4...
You was Gilad's reply?
Hi Mariano,
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <
marianop...@gmail.com> wrote:
So I wonder...is this a kind of Smalltalk image? what is similar and what different?
Better analog is a Strongtalk BST file. It contains the classes and compile-time constants, but no state.
-- Cheers, Gilad
And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
Seems so. Except that fuel can contain data "objects" not just code "objects". Okay, 10 years later i hope we again have a new language, which will inherit all current crap + finally "everything is an object" concept :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
2011/10/10 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
Seems so. Except that fuel can contain data "objects" not just code "objects".
Okay, 10 years later i hope we again have a new language, which will inherit all current crap + finally "everything is an object" concept :)
Really? I dont see that classes are objects in dart and can be assigned to variables.
On 10 October 2011 20:06, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk@gmail.com> wrote:
2011/10/10 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
Seems so. Except that fuel can contain data "objects" not just code "objects".
Okay, 10 years later i hope we again have a new language, which will inherit all current crap + finally "everything is an object" concept :)
Really?
I dont see that classes are objects in dart and can be assigned to variables.
yeah, it looks like people need another 10 years to realize the benefits of that. Because by reading dart specs i cannot leave the feeling that this language is a product of "not invented here" syndrome, rather than something fresh and new. Once, Microsoft did that with its C# project, now its seems like a Google's turn. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com>wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>wrote:
On 10 October 2011 14:22, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
My first impression: - a cross-breeding of C and .... C and a bit of C.. and then C on top.
And i bet it is implemented in C :D
You mean C#, of course. C#, with a side order of share-nothing message passing concurrency. C# on the whole isn't a bad language: it's way better than Java (which isn't, admittedly, exactly a high bar).
But still, Dart seems like nothing to write home about.
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
A couple of hours ago, I have asked this: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/group/misc/browse_thread/thread/fd4...
You was Gilad's reply?
yes :)
Hi Mariano,
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:55 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <
marianop...<https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/groups/unlock?_done=/a/dartlang.org...> @gmail.com> wrote:
So I wonder...is this a kind of Smalltalk image? what is similar and what different?
Better analog is a Strongtalk BST file. It contains the classes and compile-time constants, but no state.
-- Cheers, Gilad And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
Interesting. I would like to see the code and see if there is something I can learn from.
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
-- best, Eliot
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Hi Mariano, On 10 October 2011 20:54, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
Interesting. I would like to see the code and see if there is something I can learn from.
the entry point for Strongtalk's BST files seems to be bootstrap::parse_file() in http://code.google.com/p/strongtalk/source/browse/trunk/vm/runtime/bootstrap.... Best, Michael
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mariano,
On 10 October 2011 20:54, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck@gmail.com> wrote:
And as I understand it a BST file is pretty much the same intent as a parcel or a fuel package containing code.
Interesting. I would like to see the code and see if there is something I can learn from.
the entry point for Strongtalk's BST files seems to be bootstrap::parse_file() in
http://code.google.com/p/strongtalk/source/browse/trunk/vm/runtime/bootstrap... .
Thanks Michael for the point.
Best,
Michael
-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
Indeed I always felt stupid :) But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). So :) Stef
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Andy Bower once compared an image to a "messy bedroom" - (paraphrasing the rest), e.g. one that maybe does not look all that great, but the occupant knows where to find everything. The biggest problem I have with images is that they start to work for me and I don't want to change them. It seems to be a universal argument among Smalltalkers: save things in the image vs. know exactly how to build the image and do so every day. The latter has the advantage of not requiring lots of archeology to discover what makes something work. One argument against saving images is that they can get damaged over time. I have had reasonable luck in avoiding ugliness. In part, I know that some things (e.g. running new FFI code) are dangerous and can corrupt an image or just plain crash the vm. So, I get things ready to run the suspect code, save, and then run/exit/edit/save until I have something that work. Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. Dolphin's licensing more or less requires that applications be deployed differently than development images. I have had success making a Pharo image work as an end-user application, but it is a somewhat clunky process. It would be nice to have something that takes care of the details (saving the image elsewhere, locking it, etc.) using a wizard interface. Too many ideas, too little time... Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:54 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart Indeed I always felt stupid :) But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). So :) Stef
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On Oct 10, 2011, at 8:24 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Andy Bower once compared an image to a "messy bedroom" - (paraphrasing the rest), e.g. one that maybe does not look all that great, but the occupant knows where to find everything. The biggest problem I have with images is that they start to work for me and I don't want to change them.
It seems to be a universal argument among Smalltalkers: save things in the image vs. know exactly how to build the image and do so every day. The latter has the advantage of not requiring lots of archeology to discover what makes something work. One argument against saving images is that they can get damaged over time. I have had reasonable luck in avoiding ugliness. In part, I know that some things (e.g. running new FFI code) are dangerous and can corrupt an image or just plain crash the vm. So, I get things ready to run the suspect code, save, and then run/exit/edit/save until I have something that work.
Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. It will :)
Dolphin's licensing more or less requires that applications be deployed differently than development images. I have had success making a Pharo image work as an end-user application, but it is a somewhat clunky process. It would be nice to have something that takes care of the details (saving the image elsewhere, locking it, etc.) using a wizard interface. Too many ideas, too little time...
yes same here :)
Bill
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:54 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart
Indeed I always felt stupid :) But now I also want a mall kernel and scripting syntax (and a image one demand only). So :)
Stef
Note one sneaky thing: using an image as means of deployment: http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/10/google-dart-language mentions "Dart comes with tools to create an image of the heap of an application and package it into an optimized format which can be loaded nearly instantly, reminiscient of Smalltalk's image system."
Funny, given the number of arguments Smalltalkers have with people over the use of images.
frank
On 10 October 2011 14:43, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Google published the first information about Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/
Cheers, -- Pavel
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Stef, Best of both worlds then. I am actually working on a "slower" version of what you might want. My interest in building images is (mostly) confined to saving code from an old version and loading into a new image. The hard part is external packages advance and the installation procedures change too. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:42 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] OT: Dart
Stef, I wish you luck in reaching your kernel and scripting language. It would be really nice if the system can still save images. It will :)
participants (9)
-
Denis Kudriashov -
Eliot Miranda -
Frank Shearar -
Igor Stasenko -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Michael Haupt -
Pavel Krivanek -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse