Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow
Thierry wrote:
could you please include some quoted text in your answer? I am unable to know to whom you are answering, my mailer only classifying mails in a thread based on their date, and I need a minimum of quotes to be able to track the conversation.
I use different tools to follow the mailing list. One of which is forum.world.st. If you take a look down this thread, you'll notice the problem: http://forum.world.st/Tell-me-about-your-workflow-td4729308.html Stephan
I use different tools to follow the mailing list. One of which is forum.world.st. If you take a look down this thread, you'll notice the problem: http://forum.world.st/Tell-me-about-your-workflow-td4729308.html Ouch! Well, I guess then you have noticed what is my problem when I answer a mail when I'm away from my office... With a gateway which hides all quotes. Thierry Stephan
Hi! As Stephan Eggermont noted there was some "top posting" going on and if you don't know what that refers to you might be "a part of the problem" :) and should read this funny page describing the phenomena: http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/top-post.html ...or in more detail: http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html Happy hacking! Göran
On 17 December 2013 11:10, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi!
As Stephan Eggermont noted there was some "top posting" going on and if you don't know what that refers to you might be "a part of the problem" :) and should read this funny page describing the phenomena:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
...or in more detail:
If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid. frank
On 12/17/2013 12:49 PM, Frank Shearar wrote:
On 17 December 2013 11:10, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi!
As Stephan Eggermont noted there was some "top posting" going on and if you don't know what that refers to you might be "a part of the problem" :) and should read this funny page describing the phenomena:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
...or in more detail:
If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
Ah. I hadn't thought that many devs actually use the web UI for gmail, but perhaps they are :) And oh, I was not annoyed personally just found that page kinda funny :) regards, Göran
Yeah Gmail On Tuesday, December 17, 2013, Göran Krampe wrote:
On 12/17/2013 12:49 PM, Frank Shearar wrote:
On 17 December 2013 11:10, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
Hi!
As Stephan Eggermont noted there was some "top posting" going on and if you don't know what that refers to you might be "a part of the problem" :) and should read this funny page describing the phenomena:
http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/top-post.html
...or in more detail:
If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
Ah. I hadn't thought that many devs actually use the web UI for gmail, but perhaps they are :)
And oh, I was not annoyed personally just found that page kinda funny :)
regards, Göran
-- --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller
Ah. I hadn't thought that many devs actually use the web UI for gmail, but perhaps they are :)
But that would defeat one of the primary purpose of using web email which is access from any machine. Besides that, Gmail has the best UI, bar none. The handling of Conversations is what sets it apart.
On 17 December 2013 16:45, Chris Muller <asqueaker@gmail.com> wrote:
Ah. I hadn't thought that many devs actually use the web UI for gmail, but perhaps they are :)
But that would defeat one of the primary purpose of using web email which is access from any machine.
Besides that, Gmail has the best UI, bar none. The handling of Conversations is what sets it apart.
That's a horrible indictment of all webmail clients, because gmail's mail editor is utter rubbish. You can't paste anything even vaguely indented (like, oh I don't know, snippets of Smalltalk) without it "helpfully" unindenting everything, it strongly discourages correct use of email (i.e., not top-posting). Its new UI is a great leap backwards compared to its older UI. But, you know, it's free, it's available from every machine I care to use, and it has the best search facility of any mail client I've ever used. (Worst ever searching: Outlook.) frank
2013/12/17 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>:
On 17 December 2013 11:10, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote: If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
I keep this "This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid." Sadly, it is true. But at least we won the html vs plaintext one (or at least no one else cares). The mailing list format is not good for debate... using mails, in my opinion. Forums or other similar tools are better suited. Esteban A. Maringolo
Guilty as Charged ! Yeap no love for mailing lists and even emails in total from me either. And yes I am a big fan of top posting or whatever its called. I prefer reading the reply first , see the quote later on. Having to scroll down a quote to see a reply is killing my inner child. But I have no problem complying on this. Whatever it takes to make people happy and smiley :) The irony here is that mailing lists have been around for decades and still email web clients have not adjusted to fit the needs of having a civil reasonable conversation with people. People trying to claim that web is the future of computing (or the present) , lets say I am not impressed at all. Another proof that being popular does not make you useful. How come web is such a big pile of mess ? Frankly we should be very happy that we are a small community. Imagine this problem scaled up to a language of 1-2 million users. Scary stuff ! On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com>wrote:
2013/12/17 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com>:
On 17 December 2013 11:10, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote: If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
I keep this "This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid."
Sadly, it is true. But at least we won the html vs plaintext one (or at least no one else cares).
The mailing list format is not good for debate... using mails, in my opinion. Forums or other similar tools are better suited.
Esteban A. Maringolo
2013/12/17 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
This wasn´t even a battle until someone decided that top-posting was an amazingly good thing. Thanks to that, we now have posts/mails that sometimes don´t contain even a full sentence of original content, and are followed by loads of quoted text, with signatures, headers, images... you name it. I stop reading some threads because of the excessive amount of irrelevant quoted text, and the inverted order of "response to something" followed by "something that prompted the response. That, if there is a quote at all... Back in the day (I am talking about BBSs, Fidonet and related networks, dating back to the 80s), people took pride in having a very low content to quote ratio, but we were also very careful to quote everything needed to make sense of the response. No more, no less. The early days of Internet email weren´t as bad, either. I came to the conclusion, some years ago, that I will continue to strive to quote properly, and the rest of the world is free to do whatever they want. And I am then free to just ignore messages or threads that are too much trouble for me to follow. Cheers, Sergi
I never top quote J Ron From: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Sergi Reyner Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 11:49 AM To: Pharo Development List Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Please stop top posting... (was Re: Tell me about your workflow) 2013/12/17 Sergi Reyner <sergi.reyner@gmail.com> people took pride in having a very low content to quote ratio Of course, I actually meant quoted/original content there. Cheers, Sergi
On 12/17/2013 03:30 PM, Sergi Reyner wrote:
I came to the conclusion, some years ago, that I will continue to strive to quote properly, and the rest of the world is free to do whatever they want. And I am then free to just ignore messages or threads that are too much trouble for me to follow.
Amen to that. And I am an atheist even :) regards, Göran PS. Mailinglists beats web forums every day of the week IMHO. I am following at least 12 different mailinglists and would go totally NUTS if I had to do that in various different web UIs that don't keep track of what I have read or not...
On 17 December 2013 19:56, Göran Krampe <goran@krampe.se> wrote:
On 12/17/2013 03:30 PM, Sergi Reyner wrote:
I came to the conclusion, some years ago, that I will continue to strive to quote properly, and the rest of the world is free to do whatever they want. And I am then free to just ignore messages or threads that are too much trouble for me to follow.
Amen to that. And I am an atheist even :)
regards, Göran
PS. Mailinglists beats web forums every day of the week IMHO. I am following at least 12 different mailinglists and would go totally NUTS if I had to do that in various different web UIs that don't keep track of what I have read or not...
Web forums have pull semantics, meaning you have to go to the site to pull the info. That, in turn, implies polling. RSS mitigates this somewhat, together with aggregation, for read-only sources of info. And then if you want to respond, you'd have to go to the website, and log in, and all sorts of nonsense. frank
If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to
No need for the fine-motor click, just use right-arrow + Enter.
make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
That doesn't sound right. Don't you want to see what you're replying to?
On 17 December 2013 16:42, Chris Muller <asqueaker@gmail.com> wrote:
If you use Gmail, doing the right thing is now _hard_. (It's a click-the-ellipsis, then a find-the-place-to-edit, then hit return to
No need for the fine-motor click, just use right-arrow + Enter.
How did you find that out? Good to know, but I've no idea how I might have stumbled upon that by accident.
make a space for your words, then type, followed by scrolling back up to that place because Gmail then jumps the edit position to the bottom of the mail, followed by your actual reply.) This battle was lost a decade ago, I'm afraid.
That doesn't sound right. Don't you want to see what you're replying to?
Yes, I do. What I'm saying is that gmail makes it hard to do exactly that, never mind let me write where I want to. frank
participants (10)
-
Chris Muller -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Frank Shearar -
GOUBIER Thierry -
Göran Krampe -
kilon alios -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Ron Teitelbaum -
Sergi Reyner -
Stephan Eggermont