Additional Divider in Pharo menu
Hi, around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8 image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord. I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529 with the menu ending up looking like this: !-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT !-------------------- ! QUIT !-------------------- having added by intention an additional divider between - the more safe options to store the image (secure) - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit) I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image - but the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options. Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738 from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this: !-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT ! QUIT !-------------------- as it was back in Pharo 7. As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had to recover or reapplying changes afterwards. So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior. I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to look like in the second picture. I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7) they really prefer so we can decide on a community / voters base. Thx and sorry for the ASCII art T.
Like you I prefer with the last separator. :) Now cyril probably thought it was a mistake to have one. And this is not written in any comment. stef
On 4 Jul 2019, at 20:36, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi,
around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8 image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529 with the menu ending up looking like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT !-------------------- ! QUIT !--------------------
having added by intention an additional divider between - the more safe options to store the image (secure) - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image - but the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738 from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT ! QUIT !--------------------
as it was back in Pharo 7.
As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to look like in the second picture.
I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)
they really prefer so we can decide on a community / voters base.
Thx and sorry for the ASCII art T.
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 19:37, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi,
around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8 image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529 with the menu ending up looking like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT !-------------------- ! QUIT !--------------------
having added by intention an additional divider between - the more safe options to store the image (secure) - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image - but the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738 from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT ! QUIT !--------------------
as it was back in Pharo 7.
As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to look like in the second picture.
I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)
Separating dangerous options from the safe options seems a good idea - Both for physical jitter and also cognitively. Even though Quit presents a confirmation dialog, I've had cognitive-fails clicking YES instead of NO**. so WITH DIVIDER + 1 Further, I personally use Save much more often than Settings. I'd prefer Save on the top line and Settings above Quit I advocated this prior to midway through Pharo 7 but got no response. It would provide even greater separation. Some Settings menu-item placement examples... https://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/chrome-menu.png https://ntopology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FileMenu.png https://ggnome.com/wiki/images/d/d6/FileMenuWin.png https://www.mozenda.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/AgentBuilder-File-Setting... cheers -ben **P.S. I'm generally opposed to YES/NO buttons. Its easy to invert logic when your in a hurry. A confirmation dialog QUIT/STAY is much more explicit. Rule #1 ==> https://uxmovement.com/buttons/5-rules-for-choosing-the-right-words-on-butto...
The convention for exiting anything that requires saving is using a Yes/No/Cancel interaction. Yes: Exit and save. No: Exit without saving. Cancel: Do nothing. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 10:46 AM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 19:37, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi,
around 20 days ago the order of menu items in the Pharo world menu were munged up in the standard Pharo 8 image for whatever reasons. "Safe" was on first position and not grouped with other "Save ..." items anymore as it was in the past. This was noted by Alexandre Bergel and others on Discord.
I fixed the order in the following PULL REQUEST https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3529 with the menu ending up looking like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT !-------------------- ! QUIT !--------------------
having added by intention an additional divider between - the more safe options to store the image (secure) - the unsafe quit where one can loose changes in the image (insecure if you just quit)
I know that "SAVE AND QUIT" and "QUIT" also might belong somehow together as both exit the image - but the diver should separate the more secure options from the more insecure options.
Now today the divider was removed again using https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3738 from Cyril Ferlicot mentioning it as "unwanted" - so now the menu looks like this:
!-------------------- ! SETTINGS !-------------------- ! SAVE ! SAVE AS ! SAVE AND QUIT ! QUIT !--------------------
as it was back in Pharo 7.
As I'm someone who is mousing around very quickly in the past it often happened to me that while I wanted to really "SAVE AND QUIT" I hit accidentally the "QUIT" button directly below - leaving me in a state where I had to recover or reapplying changes afterwards.
So using the additonal divider between the three "safe my data" options and the "just leave" was intentional and to me makes some sense: from the point of view of grouping, visually and from clicking behavior.
I guess Cyril Ferlicot wanted to restore how it looked in Pharo 7 or had other reasons why he prefers the menu to look like in the second picture.
I know it is not a big thing - but nonetheless: It would be good if others could write which option
a) WITH DIVIDER (as in first picture to separate safe from unsafe options) or b) WITHOUT DIVIDER (as in second picture to stay like it was back in Pharo 7)
Separating dangerous options from the safe options seems a good idea - Both for physical jitter and also cognitively. Even though Quit presents a confirmation dialog, I've had cognitive-fails clicking YES instead of NO**. so WITH DIVIDER + 1
Further, I personally use Save much more often than Settings. I'd prefer Save on the top line and Settings above Quit I advocated this prior to midway through Pharo 7 but got no response. It would provide even greater separation.
Some Settings menu-item placement examples... https://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/chrome-menu.png https://ntopology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FileMenu.png https://ggnome.com/wiki/images/d/d6/FileMenuWin.png https://www.mozenda.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/AgentBuilder-File-Setting...
cheers -ben
**P.S. I'm generally opposed to YES/NO buttons. Its easy to invert logic when your in a hurry. A confirmation dialog QUIT/STAY is much more explicit. Rule #1 ==> https://uxmovement.com/buttons/5-rules-for-choosing-the-right-words-on-butto...
Pharo Zen says: Explicit is better than implicit. http://blog.pharo.fr/pages/PHARO-Zen On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 21:53, Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
The ***convention*** for exiting anything that requires saving is using a Yes/No/Cancel interaction.
Yes: Exit and save. No: Exit without saving. Cancel: Do nothing.
Thanks for the clarification. So indeed this a case in point. The implicit semantics were not clear to me. (I don't think I've ever pressed No - only Yes or Cancel). This would be better: Save: Exit and save. Discard: Exit without saving. Cancel: Do nothing. Taking as inspiration Marcus' trivial-fix-a-day, rather than just chatter about it, here is my action... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/3774 cheers -ben
participants (4)
-
Ben Coman -
ducasse -
Esteban Maringolo -
Torsten Bergmann