Bill, Please look over the list to find the answer to your question. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Is the missing debugger on your list?  I have found 1.3 (speaking as a friend here) to be unusable over this.  I get some work done with it, and then debuggers stop opening, rendering the image useless (AFAIK).

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Marcus Denker [marcus.denker@inria.fr] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 2:57 AM To: An open mailing list to discuss any topics related to an open-source Smalltalk Subject: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

Hi,

Just as another suggestion of something else to do to uselessly talk about what one would do if one could do... here is something that needs to be done:

       http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list?can=2&q=Milestone%3D1.3

Someone need to looks at each issue and as questions.

       - can this problem be repeated in the current last version of 1.3?        - is this already fixed in 1.4? if yes                -- is it so grave that the fix needs to be backported?        - was it already a bug for the last 10 years and it did not hurt?                -- Hint, hint: likely not important for fixing in 1.3 after it has been released.                    (yet, it could be. And if the fix is easy and clearly not breaking anything)        - is there already a bug report about this issue on the tracker?                (you have no idea how many reports are duplicated entries...)        - What could be the reason for the problem? What could be a possible fix?

-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

On 24 Feb 2012, at 10:56, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

If memory serves, this has been reported (Sig, I'm thinking of the even sensor or similar bug) and is a known problem. I did look over the list, don't see it mentioned, at least not in terms that jump out at me. Could be wrong. It's a BAD bug IMHO.

Look, I know you are not making this up and are trying to more forward, BUT: you really, really, have to provide a detailed bug report before anyone can even try to help you. You write software yourself, you presumably have users for it, you know how this works. You are describing things in very general terms and use strong negative adjectives, this won't work. Give us a (short/simple) way to reproduce your problem, please. Sven

Bill, Am 24.02.2012 um 11:12 schrieb Schwab,Wilhelm K:

There is a tracker entry, but please understand it's the middle of the night here and I'm in and out. I think Sig will know the details more off the top, otherwise I'll search later. Would you rather I say nothing about a known bug?

no, it is not saying nothing. Your reply to Marcus' mail (if it is in the list) is exactly what Marcus meant. Nobody (including me) takes the time to add something. A question is written quickly but at the same time you are making your own case easy while wasting someone elses time. Excuses are the wrong reaction IMHO. Writing a couple of emails and state that you don't have time is a contradiction. It is one that we like to oversee because we are lazy guys. So if you need an advize from me than I would suggest that while you are tired write it down on a piece of paper. On the next day spend some fresh time scanning the issue tracker and come up with something substantial being either a new bug entry or a concrete question. Norbert

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven@beta9.be] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 5:08 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 24 Feb 2012, at 10:56, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

...

If memory serves, this has been reported (Sig, I'm thinking of the even sensor or similar bug) and is a known problem. I did look over the list, don't see it mentioned, at least not in terms that jump out at me. Could be wrong. It's a BAD bug IMHO.

Look, I know you are not making this up and are trying to more forward, BUT: you really, really, have to provide a detailed bug report before anyone can even try to help you. You write software yourself, you presumably have users for it, you know how this works.

You are describing things in very general terms and use strong negative adjectives, this won't work.

Give us a (short/simple) way to reproduce your problem, please.

Sven

Guys, I'm hoping Sig will see this an immediately know what is at play. I don't even know if there is a fix, but there appears to be in 1.4. If backporting that to 1.3 is feasible, it should be done. I *think* I know some keywords that might pull his relevant reply (something like "you are a victim of") from the archive. Can't do it right now. BTW, I took Stef's reply and used it to good effect - might have even figured out why I couldn't build images. All part of testing. If you look, you'll find code of mine in the image. Have you noted some of my responses to help others - probably not. But I would rather not play "I haven't seen" games. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven@beta9.be] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:02 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 24 Feb 2012, at 11:12, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

There is a tracker entry, but please understand it's the middle of the night here and I'm in and out. I think Sig will know the details more off the top, otherwise I'll search later. Would you rather I say nothing about a known bug?

I can't find anything with Schwab, Bill or Wilhelm in any issue ever in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list (there are a handful that are more than half a year old, magically you even received help). I read this mailing list all the time, I can't remember seeing a concrete, reproduceable bug report. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Some, like Stef, even took the trouble of trying to load some of the stuff that was causing you trouble, only to report that it worked for them. I and many others ask for help and report problems here all the time. It is incredible how people spring up all the time to help others with both simple and deep problems. It is often so that the one reporting a problem did something wrong himself, I am guilty here as well, but even then people took the trouble to look and give some of their valuable time. The way you ask the question makes a huge difference: provide details, make it reproduceable, don't include negative stuff. I'll make you a promise: I'll give you some of my personal time to try whatever you report next as 'BAD bug, makes 1.3 unstable, rendering the image useless', provided there is a description of how I should do it. Sven

Sig, I did some reading on the tracker, and while I don't fully follow, it sounds like my problem might be fixed by starting over and using a standard vm???? Is there a fix that can go in 1.4, because I'm seeing something like this there too. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab@anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:29 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 Here is the item that I think needs a fix (if one exists):

(1) can't open debugger

seem to be you victim of http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5167&q=finalization&colspec=... its indeed prevents debugger from starting in some cases This is an excerpt from From: Igor Stasenko <siguctua@...> Subject: Re: 1.4 - better from Jenkins Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.pharo.devel Date: 2012-02-10 09:43:34 GMT (2 weeks, 5 hours and 43 minutes ago) ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab@anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:11 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 Guys, I'm hoping Sig will see this an immediately know what is at play. I don't even know if there is a fix, but there appears to be in 1.4. If backporting that to 1.3 is feasible, it should be done. I *think* I know some keywords that might pull his relevant reply (something like "you are a victim of") from the archive. Can't do it right now. BTW, I took Stef's reply and used it to good effect - might have even figured out why I couldn't build images. All part of testing. If you look, you'll find code of mine in the image. Have you noted some of my responses to help others - probably not. But I would rather not play "I haven't seen" games. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven@beta9.be] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:02 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 24 Feb 2012, at 11:12, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

There is a tracker entry, but please understand it's the middle of the night here and I'm in and out. I think Sig will know the details more off the top, otherwise I'll search later. Would you rather I say nothing about a known bug?

I can't find anything with Schwab, Bill or Wilhelm in any issue ever in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list (there are a handful that are more than half a year old, magically you even received help). I read this mailing list all the time, I can't remember seeing a concrete, reproduceable bug report. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Some, like Stef, even took the trouble of trying to load some of the stuff that was causing you trouble, only to report that it worked for them. I and many others ask for help and report problems here all the time. It is incredible how people spring up all the time to help others with both simple and deep problems. It is often so that the one reporting a problem did something wrong himself, I am guilty here as well, but even then people took the trouble to look and give some of their valuable time. The way you ask the question makes a huge difference: provide details, make it reproduceable, don't include negative stuff. I'll make you a promise: I'll give you some of my personal time to try whatever you report next as 'BAD bug, makes 1.3 unstable, rendering the image useless', provided there is a description of how I should do it. Sven

Sig, Fair enough. I find 1..3 to unstable, and the thrashing sounds about right. For now I am trying to carve a home in 1.4. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:37 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 24 February 2012 16:11, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Guys,

I'm hoping Sig will see this an immediately know what is at play. I don't even know if there is a fix, but there appears to be in 1.4. If backporting that to 1.3 is feasible, it should be done. I *think* I know some keywords that might pull his relevant reply (something like "you are a victim of") from the archive. Can't do it right now.

i remember it. And no, i don't see why these changes are needed to be backported to 1.3. It was : http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5167&q=finalization&colspec=... and fix which were integrated was about improving a situation with runaway processes and interrupt handling. Now, that bug entry is still not closed, becaue we have to deal with so-called "finalization trashing", whether it is real issue or not. As to me, this is not an issue, because finalization "trashing" is a consequence but not the cause. And since it is better to fix the cause instead, that what i actually did. And then during integration i made a mistake in one method (an overlooking), causing debugger to not open, but it is already reverted. All this is related to 1.4 bleeding edge, not to 1.3. And i personally don't see good reason porting it to 1.3. It is not critical. We just improved this part a bit. So, the new pharo version is naturally better than older one.. that's why we got versions and development process. :) If we would start backporting everything, then we don't need versions anymore. We then will just have single image and fight with all dragons at once.

BTW, I took Stef's reply and used it to good effect - might have even figured out why I couldn't build images. All part of testing. If you look, you'll find code of mine in the image. Have you noted some of my responses to help others - probably not. But I would rather not play "I haven't seen" games.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven@beta9.be] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:02 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 24 Feb 2012, at 11:12, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

...

There is a tracker entry, but please understand it's the middle of the night here and I'm in and out. I think Sig will know the details more off the top, otherwise I'll search later. Would you rather I say nothing about a known bug?

I can't find anything with Schwab, Bill or Wilhelm in any issue ever in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list (there are a handful that are more than half a year old, magically you even received help). I read this mailing list all the time, I can't remember seeing a concrete, reproduceable bug report. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Some, like Stef, even took the trouble of trying to load some of the stuff that was causing you trouble, only to report that it worked for them.

I and many others ask for help and report problems here all the time. It is incredible how people spring up all the time to help others with both simple and deep problems. It is often so that the one reporting a problem did something wrong himself, I am guilty here as well, but even then people took the trouble to look and give some of their valuable time.

The way you ask the question makes a huge difference: provide details, make it reproduceable, don't include negative stuff.

I'll make you a promise: I'll give you some of my personal time to try whatever you report next as 'BAD bug, makes 1.3 unstable, rendering the image useless', provided there is a description of how I should do it.

Sven

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Sig, I hope you are correct, but my experience says otherwise. I'm going to press on with 1.4, try setting a breakpoint in the snapshot to screen for involuntary saves, and then "certify" the image with a gratuitous error each time after MC activity and before saving. As it is, I keep getting corrupt images that have thins loaded but ultimately are useless because the debugger won't work. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 2:01 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 24 February 2012 20:48, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

Fair enough. I find 1..3 to unstable, and the thrashing sounds about right. For now I am trying to carve a home in 1.4.

i don't think it is fair labeling 1.3 unstable. It is quite stable and worked well for me. Now there's always space for improvement, but that's doesn't nullifies the quality of previous hard work of many people (pharo 1.3, 1.2 , 1.1, 1.0 squeak etc..)

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:37 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 24 February 2012 16:11, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Guys,

I'm hoping Sig will see this an immediately know what is at play. I don't even know if there is a fix, but there appears to be in 1.4. If backporting that to 1.3 is feasible, it should be done. I *think* I know some keywords that might pull his relevant reply (something like "you are a victim of") from the archive. Can't do it right now.

i remember it. And no, i don't see why these changes are needed to be backported to 1.3. It was : http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5167&q=finalization&colspec=...

and fix which were integrated was about improving a situation with runaway processes and interrupt handling.

Now, that bug entry is still not closed, becaue we have to deal with so-called "finalization trashing", whether it is real issue or not. As to me, this is not an issue, because finalization "trashing" is a consequence but not the cause. And since it is better to fix the cause instead, that what i actually did. And then during integration i made a mistake in one method (an overlooking), causing debugger to not open, but it is already reverted. All this is related to 1.4 bleeding edge, not to 1.3. And i personally don't see good reason porting it to 1.3. It is not critical. We just improved this part a bit. So, the new pharo version is naturally better than older one.. that's why we got versions and development process. :) If we would start backporting everything, then we don't need versions anymore. We then will just have single image and fight with all dragons at once.

...

BTW, I took Stef's reply and used it to good effect - might have even figured out why I couldn't build images. All part of testing. If you look, you'll find code of mine in the image. Have you noted some of my responses to help others - probably not. But I would rather not play "I haven't seen" games.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Sven Van Caekenberghe [sven@beta9.be] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:02 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 24 Feb 2012, at 11:12, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:

...

There is a tracker entry, but please understand it's the middle of the night here and I'm in and out. I think Sig will know the details more off the top, otherwise I'll search later. Would you rather I say nothing about a known bug?

I can't find anything with Schwab, Bill or Wilhelm in any issue ever in http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list (there are a handful that are more than half a year old, magically you even received help). I read this mailing list all the time, I can't remember seeing a concrete, reproduceable bug report. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Some, like Stef, even took the trouble of trying to load some of the stuff that was causing you trouble, only to report that it worked for them.

I and many others ask for help and report problems here all the time. It is incredible how people spring up all the time to help others with both simple and deep problems. It is often so that the one reporting a problem did something wrong himself, I am guilty here as well, but even then people took the trouble to look and give some of their valuable time.

The way you ask the question makes a huge difference: provide details, make it reproduceable, don't include negative stuff.

I'll make you a promise: I'll give you some of my personal time to try whatever you report next as 'BAD bug, makes 1.3 unstable, rendering the image useless', provided there is a description of how I should do it.

Sven

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

One more thing: if it about private project, just tell me where to put my signature under NDA. If that would help to make Pharo more stable as well as help your project to keep going on, we're both in mutual benefit without risks for you. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 25 February 2012 03:39, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

*I* can't set that up, but I know someone who can.  It won't be a soft sell though, but it is kind offer on your part and I will investigate.  Right now, the private project is Migrate, and you can HAVE that; I just need to scratch my head about how to make it work for you, after which you can tell me how naive I'm being :)

I have own reasons to help. So if you think you still need it, feel free to contact me.

For now, I appear to have found the culprit: loading Alien is frying the image.

Quite possible. FFI is delicate thing.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:58 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

One more thing: if it about private project, just tell me where to put my signature under NDA. If that would help to make Pharo more stable as well as help your project to keep going on, we're both in mutual benefit without risks for you.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Sig, Sorry about the empty reply. Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached). Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes. You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy. Content of them can be simple to start. The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us. THANKS!!! Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:30 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 25 February 2012 03:39, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

*I* can't set that up, but I know someone who can. It won't be a soft sell though, but it is kind offer on your part and I will investigate. Right now, the private project is Migrate, and you can HAVE that; I just need to scratch my head about how to make it work for you, after which you can tell me how naive I'm being :)

I have own reasons to help. So if you think you still need it, feel free to contact me.

For now, I appear to have found the culprit: loading Alien is frying the image.

Quite possible. FFI is delicate thing.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:58 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

One more thing: if it about private project, just tell me where to put my signature under NDA. If that would help to make Pharo more stable as well as help your project to keep going on, we're both in mutual benefit without risks for you.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply.  Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached).  Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes.  You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy.  Content of them can be simple to start.  The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting: Gofer new url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien'; load. (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion. Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability. In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself: ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion "inspect it" 0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing. And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo. For instance: package: 'Alien-Prereqs' is no longer needed, as i told here: http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken. So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue. P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of 'Alien-Prereqs' package loading. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 25 February 2012 11:15, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

This is helpful, as you have told me  what is killing my images.   Then you say to load then you say to load the latest config.  Happy to comply, but how do I do that?

(ConfigurationOfWhatever project version: 'x.y.z') load or better learn more about metacello, there's a well-written chapter of it from the guys who care https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/viewvc.php/*checkout*/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/Meta...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:39 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply.  Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached).  Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes.  You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy.  Content of them can be simple to start.  The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting:

       Gofer new                url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository';                package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien';                load.        (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion.

Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability.

In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself:

ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion  "inspect it"

0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing.

And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo.

For instance:

package: 'Alien-Prereqs'

is no longer needed, as i told here:

http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html

but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken.

So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue.

P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of  'Alien-Prereqs' package loading.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 29 February 2012 14:57, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

I appear to a 1.3 image in preliminary state.  I'm sure stuff will be broken, and Cog is rearing its head by looking for external libraries in the wrong places; symlinks should clear that up, but it's ugly.

Bill, it's not about 1.3 or 1.4. it is how VM works (symlinks/lib search). In this regard, any pharo version is not anything better than other. Yes, we need to change that at some day.

I used the 1.3 seaside image as a base, and will have Seaside 2-3 problems to fix.  Alien was the problem, probably breaking the compiler, as you suggested.

To correct you: it was not a suggestion. When Alien was released there was need to change compiler/parser in order to make it work. Eliot made a separate package for that. Now, after those changes were incorporated into Pharo itself, they are no longer needed. and moreover they might override existing methods with older/incompatible versions of it coming from Alien. Overrides are evil. Overrides in kernel are evil^2 :)

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 11:15, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

This is helpful, as you have told me  what is killing my images.   Then you say to load then you say to load the latest config.  Happy to comply, but how do I do that?

(ConfigurationOfWhatever project version: 'x.y.z') load

or better learn more about metacello, there's a well-written chapter of it from the guys who care https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/viewvc.php/*checkout*/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/Meta...

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:39 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply.  Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached).  Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes.  You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy.  Content of them can be simple to start.  The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting:

       Gofer new                url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository';                package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien';                load.        (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion.

Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability.

In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself:

ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion  "inspect it"

0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing.

And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo.

For instance:

package: 'Alien-Prereqs'

is no longer needed, as i told here:

http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html

but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken.

So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue.

P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of  'Alien-Prereqs' package loading.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Sig, I just noted that Alien-examples contains a couple of classes with no methods. Where can I find examples of callbacks in action? Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab@anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 Sig, I went back to 1.3 to get shout in browsers, and because it is theoretically more stable than 1.4. AFAIK, the key to finding libraries on Ubuntu is to use the #moduleName. Integration of the load function with ldconfig will do the rest, or should. The idea is a good one: one needs root access to change ldconfig's map, but anyone can read it. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:01 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 On 29 February 2012 14:57, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

I appear to a 1.3 image in preliminary state. I'm sure stuff will be broken, and Cog is rearing its head by looking for external libraries in the wrong places; symlinks should clear that up, but it's ugly.

Bill, it's not about 1.3 or 1.4. it is how VM works (symlinks/lib search). In this regard, any pharo version is not anything better than other. Yes, we need to change that at some day.

I used the 1.3 seaside image as a base, and will have Seaside 2-3 problems to fix. Alien was the problem, probably breaking the compiler, as you suggested.

To correct you: it was not a suggestion. When Alien was released there was need to change compiler/parser in order to make it work. Eliot made a separate package for that. Now, after those changes were incorporated into Pharo itself, they are no longer needed. and moreover they might override existing methods with older/incompatible versions of it coming from Alien. Overrides are evil. Overrides in kernel are evil^2 :)

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 11:15, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

This is helpful, as you have told me what is killing my images. Then you say to load then you say to load the latest config. Happy to comply, but how do I do that?

(ConfigurationOfWhatever project version: 'x.y.z') load

or better learn more about metacello, there's a well-written chapter of it from the guys who care https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/viewvc.php/*checkout*/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/Meta...

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:39 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply. Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached). Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes. You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy. Content of them can be simple to start. The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting:

Gofer new url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien'; load. (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion.

Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability.

In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself:

ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion "inspect it"

0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing.

And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo.

For instance:

package: 'Alien-Prereqs'

is no longer needed, as i told here:

http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html

but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken.

So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue.

P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of 'Alien-Prereqs' package loading.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Esteban, Dumb question: let's say I loaded 1.2 or so of FFI and 0.1 of Alien. Can I safely run the code you show in that image, or do I need to start over? Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Esteban Lorenzano [estebanlm@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:45 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3 Hi, I don't know which version of VM and Pharo are you using, but for using Alien properly in latest version you need to load FFI first: Gofer it squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFFI'; load. (ConfigurationOfFFI project version: '1.5') load. then Alien needs to be latest from Eliot's branch: Gofer it squeaksource: 'Alien'; package: 'Alien'; load. that should work on latest Pharo images and latest vm builds :) best, Esteban El 29/02/2012, a las 2:26p.m., Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:

Sig,

I just noted that Alien-examples contains a couple of classes with no methods. Where can I find examples of callbacks in action?

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab@anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

Sig,

I went back to 1.3 to get shout in browsers, and because it is theoretically more stable than 1.4. AFAIK, the key to finding libraries on Ubuntu is to use the #moduleName. Integration of the load function with ldconfig will do the rest, or should. The idea is a good one: one needs root access to change ldconfig's map, but anyone can read it.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:01 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 29 February 2012 14:57, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

I appear to a 1.3 image in preliminary state. I'm sure stuff will be broken, and Cog is rearing its head by looking for external libraries in the wrong places; symlinks should clear that up, but it's ugly.

Bill, it's not about 1.3 or 1.4. it is how VM works (symlinks/lib search). In this regard, any pharo version is not anything better than other. Yes, we need to change that at some day.

...

I used the 1.3 seaside image as a base, and will have Seaside 2-3 problems to fix. Alien was the problem, probably breaking the compiler, as you suggested.

To correct you: it was not a suggestion. When Alien was released there was need to change compiler/parser in order to make it work. Eliot made a separate package for that. Now, after those changes were incorporated into Pharo itself, they are no longer needed. and moreover they might override existing methods with older/incompatible versions of it coming from Alien. Overrides are evil. Overrides in kernel are evil^2 :)

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 11:15, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

This is helpful, as you have told me what is killing my images. Then you say to load then you say to load the latest config. Happy to comply, but how do I do that?

(ConfigurationOfWhatever project version: 'x.y.z') load

or better learn more about metacello, there's a well-written chapter of it from the guys who care https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/viewvc.php/*checkout*/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/Meta...

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:39 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply. Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached). Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes. You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy. Content of them can be simple to start. The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting:

Gofer new url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien'; load. (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion.

Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability.

In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself:

ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion "inspect it"

0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing.

And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo.

For instance:

package: 'Alien-Prereqs'

is no longer needed, as i told here:

http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html

but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken.

So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue.

P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of 'Alien-Prereqs' package loading.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

On 29 February 2012 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

Sig,

I just noted that Alien-examples contains a couple of classes with no methods.  Where can I find examples of callbacks in action?

Bill, i am not maintainer of Alien. It is largely unknown to me. I even won't be surprised that you know it better than me. The main reason why you see Alien commits under my name was to fix issues with loading it into image. However it doesn't makes me responsible for other things which might or might not work there. About future: yes we want to unify all existing FFI solutions to one, working one. And i am working on that. But it doesn't means that Alien will stay as is and hence i became a person responsible for maintaining it.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Schwab,Wilhelm K [bschwab@anest.ufl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:13 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

Sig,

I went back to 1.3 to get shout in browsers, and because it is theoretically more stable than 1.4.  AFAIK, the key to finding libraries on Ubuntu is to use the #moduleName.  Integration of the load function with ldconfig will do the rest, or should.  The idea is a good one: one needs root access to change ldconfig's map, but anyone can read it.

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:01 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 29 February 2012 14:57, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

I appear to a 1.3 image in preliminary state.  I'm sure stuff will be broken, and Cog is rearing its head by looking for external libraries in the wrong places; symlinks should clear that up, but it's ugly.

Bill, it's not about 1.3 or 1.4. it is how VM works (symlinks/lib search). In this regard, any pharo version is not anything better than other. Yes, we need to change that at some day.

...

I used the 1.3 seaside image as a base, and will have Seaside 2-3 problems to fix.  Alien was the problem, probably breaking the compiler, as you suggested.

To correct you: it was not a suggestion. When Alien was released there was need to change compiler/parser in order to make it work. Eliot made a separate package for that. Now, after those changes were incorporated into Pharo itself, they are no longer needed. and moreover they might override existing methods with older/incompatible versions of it coming from Alien. Overrides are evil. Overrides in kernel are evil^2 :)

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 11:15, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

This is helpful, as you have told me  what is killing my images.   Then you say to load then you say to load the latest config.  Happy to comply, but how do I do that?

(ConfigurationOfWhatever project version: 'x.y.z') load

or better learn more about metacello, there's a well-written chapter of it from the guys who care https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/viewvc.php/*checkout*/PharoByExampleTwo-Eng/Meta...

...

Bill

________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:39 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [Bug Tracker] Issues tagged 1.3

On 25 February 2012 06:52, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 25 February 2012 06:35, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:

...

Sig,

Sorry about the empty reply.  Migrate is fair game, and the image was healthy enough to file out the base (attached).  Please look over how I install FFI to see if there are any mistakes.  You might need to stub out a basic subclass (e.g. MigrateSig or anything else you want to call it) with a few methods (#me, #homeGrownClasses, etc.) to make it happy.  Content of them can be simple to start.  The "private stuff" has yet to enter the picture so shouldn't matter to us.

THANKS!!!

Good. I will take a look.

...

Bill

Ok, things for starting:

       Gofer new                url:self mirror, 'MetacelloRepository';                package: 'ConfigurationOfAlien';                load.        (Smalltalk globals classNamed: 'ConfigurationOfAlien') perform:#loadLatestVersion.

Never ever use #loadLatestVersion, always use concrete version numbers, if you want to have stability.

In our case, #loadLatestVersion is not quite latest, you can check it by yourself:

ConfigurationOfAlien project updateProject. ConfigurationOfAlien project latestVersion  "inspect it"

0.1 [ConfigurationOfAlien] so it actually loads not the latest available version, but the most old one. Because it is the only version with #release blessing.

And i can tell you without even proceeding further, that it won't work in 1.3 neither in 1.4, because it is too old and not takes into account certain changes made in pharo.

For instance:

package: 'Alien-Prereqs'

is no longer needed, as i told here:

http://forum.world.st/Alien-Prerequisites-is-now-not-required-td3258432.html

but its even worse, this version of config will be loading Alien-Prereqs-mha.3 which having even more overrides, and will definitely put image to its knees because compiler will be broken.

So, try to load latest config first, if it would not help we will continue.

P.S. to all people involved in using Alien.. some love needed to update configs for pharo 1.3 and 1.4 to finally get rid of  'Alien-Prereqs' package loading.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

I think this attitude is what will continue to hold Pharo back from wider adoption. I've found 1.4 to be unusable for daily development.

Why? We use it daily and not for toys application. All the Moose people are working using 1.4. Have you precise problems?

And yet there's no interest in fixing problems in 1.3. This is not that there is no interest. We do not have the time and there is too much.

As long as 1.4 is totally experimental and not actually a productive environment, people who need to get stuff done won't contribute to it.

For the records, we are setting up a company around moose so we are not doing experimental things with 1.4 Our experimental things are not public.

That means that for the time being, it's the five of you who know what you're doing that will make Pharo better. It's all good to say, "complain less, patch more" (and I totally agree with it), but often times the person "complaining" is trying to figure out how to get going so they can solve their own problem!

sure

And lest you think I don't want to contribute, I'll point you to

http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4549&can=1&q=test%20runner&c...

Thanks

where I a) submitted a bug report b) included a video demonstrating the bug c) included a patch fixing the bug

responses were - "not a showstopper -> move it to 1.4" - "for me the bug entry is not really relevant"

seven months later it finally made its way in.

I can see saying, "move it to 1.4" if 1.4 is right around the corner. But it's seven months later and there's no 1.4 release and I'm personally still very confused as to what versions of stuff people actually use.

some people use 1.3 some 1.4 (for example I guess that pinesoft is in 1.4) we are in closing 1.4 but there are concerns that forced us to consider to delay a bit 1.4 Now I want that we go beta.

Presumably some people use 1.4 else it wouldn't be under "active development," but for actually getting stuff done, are people on 1.3? Or do people use 1.4 to get stuff done?

Both.

Feel free to write me off, but I'm telling you this as someone who loves smalltalk and pharo and really wants to see it win and receive wider adoption. And I imagine that you guys do too, especially since more people using pharo = more people contributing to pharo.

But right now the pharo ecosystem is so fragmented,

what let you say that?

and I feel like the development process is totally opaque,

what are your questions? so that we reply :)

and exclusive to the few people who get together in lille for the sprints or whatever.

Not really. This is simple. There is a bug we fix it and we harvest it after some can pass under our radar.

I mean really, someone says they *can't run tests*, *submits a patch*, and gets a "fuck you" response?

Did we say fuck you? I do not think so. Now when we are in crunch release time we stop integrating simple fixes.

No wonder there's so little contribution from outside the core group of developers.

This is not true. We never meet vanbecman, pavel, you and a lot more this is just that you do not see our lives here. Because Pharo is not our job :) only the one of igor but he is rather busy with graphics and VM and other stuff.

As long as 1.3 is the prime time release - i.e. the release suitable for active development - you have to support it and care about the people using it. This is not some backward compatibility thing. It's a daily usability thing. You can't tell people, "yeah that is fixed, but only in 1.4, but 1.4 isn't really ready for you to use yet."

Yes. Now if you patch works well for you you can also load it and you can also gently remind us that this fix is easy to integrate and that we forgot. Pat if one day you can make it for ESUG or for a visit at Paris you are invented to visit us. For example this week I'm traveling 4 days and I have 6 Phds students to work with and a lot lot lot more things that I must do.

And if I submit a patch for 1.3, then accept the damn patch for 1.3. Don't tell me "it'll go into 1.4" when I can't even use 1.4 myself. That's how you alienate users and keep the community tiny.

Don't take it like that. Give us a 5 min chance and consider the other side of the fence. We are working on improving our commit process so that we have less boring work to do. But to do that it means quite some work behind the scene to load, run, report, save, publish… and handle code that does not load load but crash…. Stef

Pat

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Bug-Tracker-Issues-tagged-1-3-tp4416469p4436606.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.