Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Dec. 13, 2013

      However, for the fun, it seems browsing the Roassal git commit with gitg (coded with Gtk/C) is killing gitg :). gitk was Ok.

Roassal test: Pharo OK, Gitk OK (I believe it's coded in tcl/tk), Gitg(C) Fail (> 10 minutes at full power to get the file list in the commit). Use C, it's faster, mate :):):)

Thierry

________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de GOUBIER Thierry
Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 10:00
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : [PROVENANCE INTERNET] Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Bad news. Roassal package directory has 355 entries (343 classes + a few extensions) and I don't see much of a slow down (on 3.0). It's not instantaneous, but with a bit of feedback, it doesn't seems long.

I'll do some profiling.

Thierry
________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de GOUBIER Thierry
Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:07
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : [PROVENANCE INTERNET] Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Thanks for the pointers.

I'll look at Seaside/Moose/Mondrian and Roassal, because I need code I can load and save in an image without destroying the very image I use to test  (which would happen if I load Pharo10 stuff in a 3.0 image ;) ).

Thierry

________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk@me.com]
Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 16:24
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

So if you want something big and with a lot of commits you can use Pharo* in general. Pharo10 has the most versions and Pharo30Inbox is the largest one. If you want some other projects then you heve to take a look at Seaside30, Mondrian, Moose, Glamour or Roassal.

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 16:20, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>> wrote:

Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :)

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits).

I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;)

Thierry

________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk@me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>]
Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 15:37
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etcâ¦

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :(

It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue.

My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough?

Thierry

________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian@flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>]
Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 12:12
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images

 I load filetree like this:

Gofer new
      url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/FileTree';
      package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree';
      load.
((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load.

and it never complained

let me know

On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0?

Regards,

Thierry

________________________________
De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian@flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>]
Date d'envoi : mercredi 11 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:09
Ã : Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so.

about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results

have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress

On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

Yes, you're right in the general case.

But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing.

If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3-

(But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ).

Thierry

Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a Ã©crit :
Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping
all every time.

For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast.

So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's
different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of
redundant writes

sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>

o/

On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit :
ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it
has to write the metadata each time...).

But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of
performance...

I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem:
1 - Slow read time for version metadata
- Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the
package metadata in the repository browser.
2 - Slow metadata write
3 - Slow package write

I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for
2-, and none yet for 3-

So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;)

Thierry

Esteban

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
<estebanlm@gmail.com<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>
<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

  Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search...

  (5 mins later)

  here:

https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation

  Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version.

  We should take a look at that.

  Esteban

  On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry
  <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

      Esteban, Sebastian,

      In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata,
      but it's not in use anymore.

      If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for
      compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it
back.

      I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata,
      but I haven't worked on it for a while.

      gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It
      does not solve any performance problem associated with
writing, yet.

      Thierry

      Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit :

          I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more
          compelling
          for projects that will never use other formats).
          Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I
          didn't tested yet
          (lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail...
          Dale, can you re-send the link?

          cheers,
          Esteban

          On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre
          <sebastian@flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
          <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
          <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com
          <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote:

               I should breath before I type, but you probably already
          got that I
               meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)...

               Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions
          some kind of
               compatibility metadata.

               If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos
          to save code
               why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a
          toll for no
               reason is evil.

               Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't
          extract value
               from that feature can opt-out?

               sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
          <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>

               o/

               On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre
               <sebastian@flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
          <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
          <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com
          <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>>
               wrote:

                   Hi Thierry

                   On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry
                   <thierry.goubier@cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
              <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
              <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr
              <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote:

                           I have packages (in the order of hundreds
                      of classes) and save
                           delays
                           and package click delays are starting to
                      demand patience in a
                           way that
                           doesn't feel like the right path

                       Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing
                  much with 179
                       classes on a laptop without a SSD.

                   choose one. Just for clicking the package that will
              should you
                   UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16
              seconds. Sounds like a
                   lot of overhead for reading a small .json file.

                   But the write is the most worrisome

                           All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save
                      delays would be
                           /way/ beyond
                           unacceptable

                       I'd like to know more, and understand the
                  reason, for sure. As
                       far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole
                  package to disk
                       everytime... and maybe optimising that could be
                  the solution.

                   Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time
              is the lazy
                   thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary
              code in a proof of
                   concept but that massive redundant reads certainly
              doesn't sounds
                   like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a
              limited
                   quantity of writes

                       Thierry

                           sebastian
                      <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
                      <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>

                           o/

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--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

GOUBIER Thierry

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