Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids⦠not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power. I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagine⦠Cheers, Sean
That is very cool! Ron
-----Original Message----- From: squeak-dev-bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org [mailto:squeak-dev- bounces@lists.squeakfoundation.org] On Behalf Of Sean DeNigris Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 1:03 PM To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org; squeak-dev@lists.squeakfoundation.org Subject: [squeak-dev] Smalltalk Impact
Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids. not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power.
I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagine.
Cheers, Sean
Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a national radio show about sciences. This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-) Thanks Hilaire Le 14/01/2014 19:02, Sean DeNigris a écrit :
Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids⦠not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power.
I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagineâ¦
Cheers, Sean
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
On 14 Jan 2014, at 22:38, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a national radio show about sciences. This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-)
No imagine how big the impact *could* have been if we would have done it right...
Thanks
Hilaire
Le 14/01/2014 19:02, Sean DeNigris a écrit :
Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids⦠not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power.
I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagineâ¦
Cheers, Sean
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
Le 15/01/2014 08:17, Marcus Denker a écrit :
Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a
national radio show about sciences. This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-)
No imagine how big the impact *could* have been if we would have done it right...
It doesn't matter, it belongs to the past, and each one has his/her own share of it. Pharo is a nice attempt to fix it and to make an opensource environment to develop portable Smalltalk application, step by step, stone after stone. Btw, do you have a list of the right things? Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:01, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 15/01/2014 08:17, Marcus Denker a écrit :
Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a
national radio show about sciences. This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-)
No imagine how big the impact *could* have been if we would have done it right...
It doesn't matter, it belongs to the past, and each one has his/her own share of it. Pharo is a nice attempt to fix it and to make an opensource environment to develop portable Smalltalk application, step by step, stone after stone.
Btw, do you have a list of the right things?
Etoys should have contributed to Squeak when they had the resources. To secure their own future. âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got told⦠in a tone as if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked. Marcus
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:04, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
Etoys should have contributed to Squeak when they had the resources. To secure their own future.
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got told⦠in a tone as if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked.
In hindsight, I think that the more aggressive reaction I got, the more it was a sign of me actually being right, but I did not understand that back than⦠I just slowly and quietly despaired until I could not even sleep anymore at night. Marcus
On 1/15/14, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 15 Jan 2014, at 09:04, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
Etoys should have contributed to Squeak when they had the resources. To secure their own future.
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
in a tone as if my questions was the dumbest question one could have asked.
In hindsight, I think that the more aggressive reaction I got, the more it was a sign of me actually being right, but I did not understand that back thanâ¦
Difference in philosophy and priorities. Many people assume you can build something new and well defined on an existing ground in spite of a lot of idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies. Just by wrapping and creating a DSL. But in Smalltalk the idiosyncrasies remain visible whereas in most cases you might hide them behind an API.
I just slowly and quietly despaired until I could not even sleep anymore at night.
And the history so far tells us that it is _a lot_ of clean up effort ..... Noteworthy however: Scratch is successful in spite of being built on a early version of Squeak. The situation of Etoys to the contrary is not so clear. A comparison needs to consider more factors than just the platform it is built on.... --Hannes
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
It doesn't matter. The silliness of such answer is the lack of vision and lack of community empowerment.
Noteworthy however: Scratch is successful in spite of being built on a early version of Squeak.
I see this has an extremely weakness. Imagine Java applications forking Java, a total nonsense too expensive in the long term. Hopefully Smalltalk Scratch is being ported to the recent Pharo and saved from a long and slow bits death. And more important: it is not a fork anymore. We are greatfull to the new Pharo Smalltalk vessel. Its constant care to tiers developers willing to develop and design standalone Smalltalk application with an opensource Smalltalk environment really open perspective for the Smalltalk community build up. The vision is clear, the target on sight!
The situation of Etoys to the contrary is not so clear. A comparison needs to consider more factors than just the platform it is built on....
Well, each one should take the share it deserves: forking was decided as the path for Etoys, so now Bonne chance and bon voyage... Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com>wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
It doesn't matter. The silliness of such answer is the lack of vision and lack of community empowerment.
Noteworthy however: Scratch is successful in spite of being built on a early version of Squeak.
I see this has an extremely weakness. Imagine Java applications forking Java, a total nonsense too expensive in the long term. Hopefully Smalltalk Scratch is being ported to the recent Pharo and saved from a long and slow bits death. And more important: it is not a fork anymore.
We are greatfull to the new Pharo Smalltalk vessel. Its constant care to tiers developers willing to develop and design standalone Smalltalk application with an opensource Smalltalk environment really open perspective for the Smalltalk community build up. The vision is clear, the target on sight!
The situation of Etoys to the contrary is not so clear. A comparison needs to consider more factors than just the platform it is built on....
Well, each one should take the share it deserves: forking was decided as the path for Etoys, so now Bonne chance and bon voyage...
When you want to build something which will stand for millennium, you call architect, when you want to build a beautiful facade to impress people who passing by, you call artist, couple porters and couple erectors :)
Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for. Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious. frank
On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for.
If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest. Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects.
Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious.
frank
On 17 January 2014 10:49, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for.
If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest.
Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects.
That is true of the entity paying to do the work. If you paid me to get features X, Y & Z done, and instead I did lots of (good!) work on other projects _not directly relevant to X, Y & Z_, I think you'd have every right to get angry with me. I'm _not_ suggesting that it's right for someone to completely ignore the libraries that they use. I am saying that there are multiple forces behind "we don't get paid to do X", and "this work doesn't help me deliver X" is perfectly legitimate. frank
Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious.
frank
On 17 January 2014 12:24, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 17 January 2014 10:49, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <
hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com>
wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for.
If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest.
Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects.
That is true of the entity paying to do the work. If you paid me to get features X, Y & Z done, and instead I did lots of (good!) work on other projects _not directly relevant to X, Y & Z_, I think you'd have every right to get angry with me.
Now consider that you paid to do X.. but in order to do that, you must fix something (or complete the feature) in open-source project Y, which you using. So, it is directly relevant to your work. But at the end, you can choose to either share your fixes to Y with community, or just don't (or even worse, when people mention the same problem, keep saying "ah.. yeah.. that bug.. it was fixed many years ago in one of my private projects which i will never share").
I'm _not_ suggesting that it's right for someone to completely ignore the libraries that they use. I am saying that there are multiple forces behind "we don't get paid to do X", and "this work doesn't help me deliver X" is perfectly legitimate.
frank
Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious.
frank
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
2014/1/17 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu>
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for.
If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest.
This holds true as long as you deliver X. Some companies to delivery X build Y and Z, and open source Y & Z [1] Esteban A. Maringolo [1] E.g. http://square.github.io/
Am 17.01.2014 um 11:49 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu>:
On 17 Jan 2014, at 11:27, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 16 January 2014 21:15, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 12:55, H. Hirzel a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
If I pay you to do X, and you spend all my money doing Y, you need a very good story explaining why I don't get what I paid for.
If I get paid to do X, based on an open-source platform that helps me tremendously, then it is only logical and ethical to give back and support that platform - it would even be in my own self interest.
+ [a high number] Norbert
Big, hot US companies do this all the time for thousands of projects.
Seen in hindsight, everything is obvious. At the time it might have been far from obvious.
frank
Le 17/01/2014 00:16, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
>>> âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got told⦠> > Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
Come on, there is not excuse in the experience Marcus was writing about. It was not related to a third party corporation, but an organization involved in Squeak since the begining, deciding to not collaborate with Squeak maintainer of the time. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
On 17 Jan 2014, at 16:40, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 17/01/2014 00:16, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
âWe are not payed to work on Squeakâ, that is what I got toldâ¦
Probably correct at that time...
This is usual attitude in corporate environment: you paying me to do the job, i do it and i don't care about the rest. Been there, ate that :)
Come on, there is not excuse in the experience Marcus was writing about. It was not related to a third party corporation, but an organization involved in Squeak since the begining, deciding to not collaborate with Squeak maintainer of the time.
Lets rest it⦠as people might guess, I am still sad about Squeak⦠lets say it like that: I *really* *really* believed in it (the whole thing, dynabook and all), and I still think one could have done much better than we have. And itâs not a problem that it failed: it is a problem hat it was hold back explicitly that makes me sad. How great could it have been! Just imagine a system that is improved, radically, over 20 years⦠every day a bit, every year a release, building always on top of a stable base created before... Marcus
Lets rest it. as people might guess, I am still sad about Squeak. lets say
it like
that: I *really* *really* believed in it (the whole thing, dynabook and all), and I still think one could have done much better than we have.
And it's not a problem that it failed: it is a problem hat it was hold back explicitly that makes me sad. How great could it have been!
Just imagine a system that is improved, radically, over 20 years. every day a bit, every year a release, building always on top of a stable base created before...
Marcus
The Pharo fork made me sad too. I wonder sometime if I had put in more time if I could have helped settle the rift and keep the community together. There is a lot of good work going on with Pharo now so maybe the fork was a good thing but I do wish we could all be working on one code base instead. I'm sure I will get used to the split eventually. Ron
The Pharo fork made me sad too. I wonder sometime if I had put in more time if I could have helped settle the rift and keep the community together. There is a lot of good work going on with Pharo now so maybe the fork was a good thing but I do wish we could all be working on one code base instead. I'm sure I will get used to the split eventually.
Hi ron What I can tell you is that I invested a lot into squeak (Iâm still the guy with the largest number of books about squeak: sbe, botsinc, squeak(fr)), videos, lectures, journal articles, web site, so it was not an easy solution. But this was an important one to keep my smalltalk love and not jump into something or quit definitively. I still want a really cool system to build multimedia systems of the future and for that I dream about robust and cool (clean, lean nicely designed) infrastructure. So we will see where we go. Stef
the way I see it the fork really worked in your favor as Pharo is doing very well so far. Its hard to fork but even harder to share the same vision. Personally I really love the fact that Pharo is made up of open minded people and that you are open to new ideas, yet you have the discipline to set realistic goals and achieve them. I have no doubt that Pharo can only get more popular because this combination, I think, is what modern coding really lacks. On Monday, 20 January 2014, 22:20, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
The Pharo fork made me sad too. I wonder sometime if I had put in more time if I could have helped settle the rift and keep the community together. There is a lot of good work going on with Pharo now so maybe the fork was a good thing but I do wish we could all be working on one code base instead. I'm sure I will get used to the split eventually.
Hi ron What I can tell you is that I invested a lot into squeak (Iâm still the guy with the largest number of books about squeak: sbe, botsinc, squeak(fr)), videos, lectures, journal articles, web site, so it was not an easy solution. But this was an important one to keep my smalltalk love and not jump into something or quit definitively. I still want a really cool system to build multimedia systems of the future and for that I dream about robust and cool (clean, lean nicely designed) infrastructure. So we will see where we go. Stef
Hi guys, Do not hesitate to speak about Phratch around you. I will continue to write documentation and to improve it. I hope also to have any help: feedback, documentation, translation, code... Thank you for your help. Jannik 2014/1/14 Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes@gmail.com>
Scratch is very famous worldwide. A few days ago I heard about it in a national radio show about sciences. This is why Phratch & al are jewels, to keep the lineage to Smalltalk ;-)
Thanks
Hilaire
Le 14/01/2014 19:02, Sean DeNigris a écrit :
Last week I attended an event at the The Metropolitan Museum of Art Media Lab. While networking, two educators told me that they use Scratch with their kids⦠not knowing I knew anything about it. They showed me some of their students' projects and were so proud and excited. They were also intrigued when I shared Scratch's lineage, connecting the dots back to the dynabook vision of computers as a metamedium to transform human thought. I talked about Smalltalk, and directed them to Phratch - and its ability to create tiles - as a bridge between tile-based and "full fledged" programming, for those students who yearn for more expressive power.
I thought you'd like to know that all of our work is rippling out in ways we can't imagineâ¦
Cheers, Sean
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu
-- ~~Jannik Laval~~ Ãcole des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://car.mines-douai.fr/
participants (13)
-
dimitris chloupis -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
Frank Shearar -
H. Hirzel -
Hilaire Fernandes -
Igor Stasenko -
jannik laval -
Marcus Denker -
Norbert Hartl -
Ron Teitelbaum -
Sean DeNigris -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe