Re: [Pharo-dev] [PROVENANCE INTERNET] Re: default monospaced code font
Once the correct fonts are installed, the pdf looks very different :) Revised judgement: Source code pro is not bad for a monospaced font. Source sans pro is impressive of density (9), and has this additional readability on DejaVu sans for the $l. I'll take Source Sans Pro, then. But Pharo is not seeing it in the dialog. Is that because I did a user specific install of the fonts (and not system wide) and Pharo is not checking the user-specific fonts? Thierry Le 17/10/2013 11:11, Goubier Thierry a écrit :
I'll do like you because...
I only managed to install the source code pro font so far (no default install in ubuntu) and Pharo doesn't see it (LibreOffice does). I'll look for the source sans pro download as well.
(May explain the pdf issues if the fonts are not embedded in the pdf document).
Thierry
Le 17/10/2013 10:57, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
ok i looked at .xlxslsx file at least, in google preview it looks more or less close to the truth :)
and i can say that Source Sans Pro is a winner ( to my taste ). I like that for 'i' in it don't closes together as in 'it', comparing to dejavu , where it does. It reads very clear yet compact.
On 17 October 2013 10:43, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com <mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 17 October 2013 10:47, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:
Le 17/10/2013 10:29, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
hmm.. i have suspicion that it is actually adobe who can't handle the font properly.. because in some examples for source code pro font, the adjacent letters jump onto each other. i don't believe it is that bad (see attached)Inline images 1
Adobe or the viewer? I used evince to view it, not acrobat reader. It may point to incorrect spacing information in Source Sans Pro (I have not the errors you see in Source Code Pro).
Who is in charge of the Source Pro font? Which typographer? Oh, Adobe apparently. If they can't handle it properly...
i am far from blaming adobe, just wanted to say that in my viewer it does not shows things properly, because when rendered in pharo it don't have such problems.
so i cannot have decent comparison..
Thierry
On 17 October 2013 09:28, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote:
Excellent, I like the comparison a lot! Thanks!
My take is: - Unable to like Source Code Pro 9 (and it's so wide); - Source Sans Pro 9 has spacing issues (16r, the r is too close) and reading issues (it's the worse for the lL|i characters) - Source sans Pro 10 is better than 9 (but what with the 2x space?)
Overall, I'd stay with DejaVu Sans 9 based on this sample. In my opinion, the best compromise density / readability.
Thierry
Le 16/10/2013 19:56, btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com> <mailto:btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> a écrit :
Goubier Thierry wrote:
I'd be more impressed if the argument was helping me distinguish between | and l.
Yes. It is designed to do that. Some common failings of monospaced fonts are noted [1] and dealt with. There comment section is also interesting.
The attached PDFs are the result of getting the urge to compare a broad coverage of code examples (taken from "Terse Guide to Squeak") against three fonts: * DejaVu Sans 9 point * Source Code Pro [1] [2] 9 point * Source Sans Pro [3] [4] 9 point & 10 point, since the width of 10 was the same as the others at 9. Also attached is the source excel file.
cheers -ben
[1]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/09/source-____code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/09/source-code-pro.html>> [2]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/____files/
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/ <http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/files/>> [3]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/08/source-____sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/08/source-sans-pro.html>> [4]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcesans.adobe/____postdownload?source...
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcesans.adobe/postdownload?source=dlp>>
I'l let you try, then :)
Thierry
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:
Once the correct fonts are installed, the pdf looks very different :)
Revised judgement:
Source code pro is not bad for a monospaced font. Source sans pro is impressive of density (9), and has this additional readability on DejaVu sans for the $l.
I'll take Source Sans Pro, then.
But Pharo is not seeing it in the dialog. Is that because I did a user specific install of the fonts (and not system wide) and Pharo is not checking the user-specific fonts? yes, that's exactly what happens :) but also pharo should contain those fonts (it should not need an installation)... currently I'm working on figure out why that does not work.
Esteban
Thierry
Le 17/10/2013 11:11, Goubier Thierry a écrit :
I'll do like you because...
I only managed to install the source code pro font so far (no default install in ubuntu) and Pharo doesn't see it (LibreOffice does). I'll look for the source sans pro download as well.
(May explain the pdf issues if the fonts are not embedded in the pdf document).
Thierry
Le 17/10/2013 10:57, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
ok i looked at .xlxslsx file at least, in google preview it looks more or less close to the truth :)
and i can say that Source Sans Pro is a winner ( to my taste ). I like that for 'i' in it don't closes together as in 'it', comparing to dejavu , where it does. It reads very clear yet compact.
On 17 October 2013 10:43, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com <mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 17 October 2013 10:47, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:
Le 17/10/2013 10:29, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
hmm.. i have suspicion that it is actually adobe who can't handle the font properly.. because in some examples for source code pro font, the adjacent letters jump onto each other. i don't believe it is that bad (see attached)Inline images 1
Adobe or the viewer? I used evince to view it, not acrobat reader. It may point to incorrect spacing information in Source Sans Pro (I have not the errors you see in Source Code Pro).
Who is in charge of the Source Pro font? Which typographer? Oh, Adobe apparently. If they can't handle it properly...
i am far from blaming adobe, just wanted to say that in my viewer it does not shows things properly, because when rendered in pharo it don't have such problems.
so i cannot have decent comparison..
Thierry
On 17 October 2013 09:28, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote:
Excellent, I like the comparison a lot! Thanks!
My take is: - Unable to like Source Code Pro 9 (and it's so wide); - Source Sans Pro 9 has spacing issues (16r, the r is too close) and reading issues (it's the worse for the lL|i characters) - Source sans Pro 10 is better than 9 (but what with the 2x space?)
Overall, I'd stay with DejaVu Sans 9 based on this sample. In my opinion, the best compromise density / readability.
Thierry
Le 16/10/2013 19:56, btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com> <mailto:btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> a écrit :
Goubier Thierry wrote:
I'd be more impressed if the argument was helping me distinguish between | and l.
Yes. It is designed to do that. Some common failings of monospaced fonts are noted [1] and dealt with. There comment section is also interesting.
The attached PDFs are the result of getting the urge to compare a broad coverage of code examples (taken from "Terse Guide to Squeak") against three fonts: * DejaVu Sans 9 point * Source Code Pro [1] [2] 9 point * Source Sans Pro [3] [4] 9 point & 10 point, since the width of 10 was the same as the others at 9. Also attached is the source excel file.
cheers -ben
[1]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/09/source-____code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/09/source-code-pro.html>> [2]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/____files/
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/ <http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/files/>> [3]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/08/source-____sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/08/source-sans-pro.html>> [4]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcesans.adobe/____postdownload?source...
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcesans.adobe/postdownload?source=dlp>>
I'l let you try, then :)
Thierry
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:40 , Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:
Once the correct fonts are installed, the pdf looks very different :)
Revised judgement:
Source code pro is not bad for a monospaced font. Source sans pro is impressive of density (9), and has this additional readability on DejaVu sans for the $l.
I'll take Source Sans Pro, then.
But Pharo is not seeing it in the dialog. Is that because I did a user specific install of the fonts (and not system wide) and Pharo is not checking the user-specific fonts? yes, that's exactly what happens :) but also pharo should contain those fonts (it should not need an installation)... currently I'm working on figure out why that does not work.
Esteban
I noticed display of fallback-fonts is broken for StrikeFonts now, (select Bitmap Deja Vu and any non-western language (or French) to have the palindrome preview X out) I guess that's not a big issue if the plan for 3.0 is embedding true type/freetype fonts in the image and removing StrikeFonts altogether though. Cheers, Henry
On 17 October 2013 12:02, Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no>wrote:
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:40 , Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
wrote:
Once the correct fonts are installed, the pdf looks very different :)
Revised judgement:
Source code pro is not bad for a monospaced font. Source sans pro is impressive of density (9), and has this additional
readability on DejaVu sans for the $l.
I'll take Source Sans Pro, then.
But Pharo is not seeing it in the dialog. Is that because I did a user
specific install of the fonts (and not system wide) and Pharo is not checking the user-specific fonts? yes, that's exactly what happens :) but also pharo should contain those fonts (it should not need an installation)... currently I'm working on figure out why that does not work.
Esteban
I noticed display of fallback-fonts is broken for StrikeFonts now, (select Bitmap Deja Vu and any non-western language (or French) to have the palindrome preview X out) I guess that's not a big issue if the plan for 3.0 is embedding true type/freetype fonts in the image and removing StrikeFonts altogether though.
there will be a single fallback raster font (single resolution, to not
take much space), for the cases when freetype unavail.
Cheers, Henry
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Esteban, I'm checking with 2.0 so it may be the reason for the lack of Source Code / Source Sans in my image :) I'll wait for the RPackage update on 3.0 and I also have to clean my settings for 3.0. Thierry Le 17/10/2013 11:40, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
On Oct 17, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:
Once the correct fonts are installed, the pdf looks very different :)
Revised judgement:
Source code pro is not bad for a monospaced font. Source sans pro is impressive of density (9), and has this additional readability on DejaVu sans for the $l.
I'll take Source Sans Pro, then.
But Pharo is not seeing it in the dialog. Is that because I did a user specific install of the fonts (and not system wide) and Pharo is not checking the user-specific fonts? yes, that's exactly what happens :) but also pharo should contain those fonts (it should not need an installation)... currently I'm working on figure out why that does not work.
Esteban
Thierry
Le 17/10/2013 11:11, Goubier Thierry a écrit :
I'll do like you because...
I only managed to install the source code pro font so far (no default install in ubuntu) and Pharo doesn't see it (LibreOffice does). I'll look for the source sans pro download as well.
(May explain the pdf issues if the fonts are not embedded in the pdf document).
Thierry
Le 17/10/2013 10:57, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
ok i looked at .xlxslsx file at least, in google preview it looks more or less close to the truth :)
and i can say that Source Sans Pro is a winner ( to my taste ). I like that for 'i' in it don't closes together as in 'it', comparing to dejavu , where it does. It reads very clear yet compact.
On 17 October 2013 10:43, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com <mailto:siguctua@gmail.com>> wrote:
On 17 October 2013 10:47, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:
Le 17/10/2013 10:29, Igor Stasenko a écrit :
hmm.. i have suspicion that it is actually adobe who can't handle the font properly.. because in some examples for source code pro font, the adjacent letters jump onto each other. i don't believe it is that bad (see attached)Inline images 1
Adobe or the viewer? I used evince to view it, not acrobat reader. It may point to incorrect spacing information in Source Sans Pro (I have not the errors you see in Source Code Pro).
Who is in charge of the Source Pro font? Which typographer? Oh, Adobe apparently. If they can't handle it properly...
i am far from blaming adobe, just wanted to say that in my viewer it does not shows things properly, because when rendered in pharo it don't have such problems.
so i cannot have decent comparison..
Thierry
On 17 October 2013 09:28, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote:
Excellent, I like the comparison a lot! Thanks!
My take is: - Unable to like Source Code Pro 9 (and it's so wide); - Source Sans Pro 9 has spacing issues (16r, the r is too close) and reading issues (it's the worse for the lL|i characters) - Source sans Pro 10 is better than 9 (but what with the 2x space?)
Overall, I'd stay with DejaVu Sans 9 based on this sample. In my opinion, the best compromise density / readability.
Thierry
Le 16/10/2013 19:56, btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com> <mailto:btc@openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> a écrit :
Goubier Thierry wrote:
I'd be more impressed if the argument was helping me distinguish between | and l.
Yes. It is designed to do that. Some common failings of monospaced fonts are noted [1] and dealt with. There comment section is also interesting.
The attached PDFs are the result of getting the urge to compare a broad coverage of code examples (taken from "Terse Guide to Squeak") against three fonts: * DejaVu Sans 9 point * Source Code Pro [1] [2] 9 point * Source Sans Pro [3] [4] 9 point & 10 point, since the width of 10 was the same as the others at 9. Also attached is the source excel file.
cheers -ben
[1]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/09/source-____code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/09/source-__code-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/09/source-code-pro.html>> [2]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/____files/
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/__files/ <http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcecodepro.adobe/files/>> [3]
http://blogs.adobe.com/____typblography/2012/08/source-____sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html>
<http://blogs.adobe.com/__typblography/2012/08/source-__sans-pro.html
<http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/2012/08/source-sans-pro.html>> [4]
http://sourceforge.net/____projects/sourcesans.adobe/____postdownload?source...
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp>
<http://sourceforge.net/__projects/sourcesans.adobe/__postdownload?source=dlp
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/sourcesans.adobe/postdownload?source=dlp>>
I'l let you try, then :)
Thierry
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
-- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
participants (4)
-
Esteban Lorenzano -
Goubier Thierry -
Henrik Johansen -
Igor Stasenko