Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven
Hi, Some months ago, I added an FFI call to libgit to get this information. Here: https://github.com/pharo-vcs/libgit2-pharo-bindings/pull/40 But after this PR is merged, Metacello should use it, and I didn't research how to do it (I never contributed to this project yet...). Maybe somebody can assess how to do it? Regards, MartÃn On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 8:32 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Maybe itâs worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Maybe itâs worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe itâs worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Hi, itâs âhighly probablyâ somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldnât blame language (donât pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabularyâ; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You canât erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you canât be bothered to know, Iâm member of one of those nations called âSlavicâ (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslaveâ came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirsâ of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community wonât let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven
On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:13 PM <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> wrote:
You canât erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
I think that the change from master to main makes more sense from the semantic point of view since main is more accurate, I still haven't seen a `slave` branch in any repository. So I think that the "master" name was chosen as in "master key". In Spanish "master" translates to "principal" which translates back to "main", and also to "maestro", which translates back to "teacher". So I think that the GitHub change does nothing against slavery, but the change ripples with side effects as the one that started this mail thread. In any case, it says more about them than about me, and since this is not mandatory, I have no urge to rename anything soon. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against __actual__ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM TO: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> CC: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> SUBJECT: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. The phrasing âwokeâ actually came from âthe leftâ, first it was being âwokeâ about feminism, then this, then that. Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwokeâ fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwokeâ in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabularyâ. As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesnât have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. But it usually takes âhaving the lived experienceâ of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesnât belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said. And with this, Iâm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list. Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Hi, it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven
Bullshit bullshit bullshit. It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project. Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid. Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit. Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.
The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that.
Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.
Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary".
As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.
But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.
And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.
Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.
FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM TO: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> CC: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org SUBJECT: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.
So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)
It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.
Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.
Steven.
Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against __actual__ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM TO: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> CC: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> SUBJECT: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
à ... as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt ... Ouch, such a terrible typo. âthere is *no* needâ. In other news, thanks for all the hysteria, but no plang mailing list needs it; just many thanks for demonstrating exacly what it is thatâs not needed. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 12:18 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Bullshit bullshit bullshit. It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project. Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid. Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit. Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that. Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary". As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said. And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list. Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Hi, it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a écrit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven
I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how does master in this context relates to slavery? I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So I really don't understand it. As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts, but calling people names does not foster dialogue, and certainly doesn't help building a stronger community. Best regards, Esteban A. Maringolo On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> wrote:
Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project.
Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.
Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit.
Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.
The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that.
Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.
Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary".
As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.
But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.
And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.
Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.
So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)
It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.
Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.
Steven.
Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same.
If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.
Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Le 2021-07-21 16:26, Esteban Maringolo a écrit :
I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how does master in this context relates to slavery?
I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So I really don't understand it.
Sure, it was randomly chosen. Perhaps it designates a martial art master, which totally makes sense for the main branch that controls a software project. Totally makes sense. Of course everybody knows Microsoft does not really care (maybe some of their employees, I don't know) and that is just marketing (again, maybe not for people who feel concerned, but I will not speak for them). In the meantime, if nazis were not trying to shut up the big-picture-idea, those "discussions" would not happen.
As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts,
It is political by essence, as an **open-source** project, it is more political because it promotes a vision, it is even more because it requires funding that is found by many ways that involve choices and politics. Then, the fact that you and your friends (you are a few here) want that we don't speak about that kind of topics (it was the same for the code of conduct) **is** political. So, you, by *arguing* with me right now, are making it political. What more do you need?
but calling people names does not foster dialogue,
Exactly! I don't want to dialogue with nazis and hear their shit, I want them to go away. And don't play the naive card: using precise keywords "woke", "woke incursion", "virtue-signalling", etc. are the mark of the nazis calling for more nazis to help them shut social and political actions down. It is factual. I am not the one insulting.
and certainly doesn't help building a stronger community.
Best regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> wrote:
Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project.
Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.
Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit.
Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.
The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that.
Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.
Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary".
As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.
But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.
And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.
Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.
So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)
It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.
Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.
Steven.
Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same.
If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.
Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
I agree with Steven, almost everything is political, unfortunately. And getting rid of the vocabulary of oppression in computer science, of course, is close to nothing compared to the real fights for equal rights & justice. But we have to do our part, even if it is not really significant for the people suffering. We have to do it because of the concept words carry. There is no need to talk about master(and slave) for naming computer's concept. I'm not referring to any specific periods or ethnicities enslaved in the past, but the principle of having people dominating others. I believe in cooperation over domination. Open source looks like anarchism by its very nature, and that's great! So let's use words with positive or neutral meanings as open source contributors. That won't make the inequalities disappear overnight but at least that kind of change is meaningful and will make some people realize that words have meanings. Harald Le jeu. 22 juil. 2021 à 02:59, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> a écrit :
Le 2021-07-21 16:26, Esteban Maringolo a écrit :
I agree with the fact that words shape our way of thinking, but how does master in this context relates to slavery?
I would agree that a master/slave disk setup would directly relate to that, but as I see there are no "slave" branches nor repositories. So I really don't understand it.
Sure, it was randomly chosen. Perhaps it designates a martial art master, which totally makes sense for the main branch that controls a software project. Totally makes sense.
Of course everybody knows Microsoft does not really care (maybe some of their employees, I don't know) and that is just marketing (again, maybe not for people who feel concerned, but I will not speak for them). In the meantime, if nazis were not trying to shut up the big-picture-idea, those "discussions" would not happen.
As for Pharo being political, I have my doubts,
It is political by essence, as an **open-source** project, it is more political because it promotes a vision, it is even more because it requires funding that is found by many ways that involve choices and politics.
Then, the fact that you and your friends (you are a few here) want that we don't speak about that kind of topics (it was the same for the code of conduct) **is** political. So, you, by *arguing* with me right now, are making it political.
What more do you need?
but calling people names does not foster dialogue,
Exactly! I don't want to dialogue with nazis and hear their shit, I want them to go away.
And don't play the naive card: using precise keywords "woke", "woke incursion", "virtue-signalling", etc. are the mark of the nazis calling for more nazis to help them shut social and political actions down. It is factual. I am not the one insulting.
and certainly doesn't help building a stronger community.
Best regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> wrote:
Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project.
Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.
Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit.
Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.
The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that.
Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.
Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary".
As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.
But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.
And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.
Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.
So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)
It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.
Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.
Steven.
Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same.
If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.
Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
Sure, it was randomly chosen. I have no idea, do you have certainty, but I still don't see the relation in this context.
Perhaps it designates a martial art master, which totally makes sense for the main branch that controls a software project. Totally makes sense.
I guess they all share the same root. https://www.etymonline.com/word/master
Then, the fact that you and your friends (you are a few here)
I speak for myself, and albeit I have a few friends in this list (most of whom I know outside of the virtual realm), I have more colleagues with whom I've been around sharing all kinds of conversations with them, even when holding different (or even opposite opinions) about all kinds of topics. And I plan to continue doing so. With respect and without calling names. You're making a "us" and "you" argument here that is not necessary, and it seems you're keeping track of each member in the list, I don't know man...
want that we don't speak about that kind of topics (it was the same for the code of conduct) **is** political.
Me talking about this issue means I don't want to talk about the issue? ¯\_(ã)_/¯ I like etymology and using the right word for the right thing, I made my point before that, and I repeat it just in case, I thought main was more accurate in this context, but I don't share the reasoning behind changing it. And that's all what I'll say about the matter, it's a done fact now, so I deal with it.
So, you, by *arguing* with me right now, are making it political.
Fair enough.
Hi Steven,
Am 21.07.2021 um 16:58 schrieb Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io>:
Le 2021-07-21 16:26, Esteban Maringolo a écrit :
but calling people names does not foster dialogue,
Exactly! I don't want to dialogue with nazis and hear their shit, I want them to go away.
And don't play the naive card: using precise keywords "woke", "woke incursion", "virtue-signalling", etc. are the mark of the nazis calling for more nazis to help them shut social and political actions down. It is factual. I am not the one insulting.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I am deeply annoyed and offended with Mr. Raus vocabulary and argumentation on the topic. I too see no use whatsoever in trying to argue with these people, and I too want them to go away if they cannot help themselves and shut up about these topics. Thank you for speaking up! Without you I would not have had the courage to state my view. Best regards, Bernhard Pieber
and certainly doesn't help building a stronger community.
Best regards,
Esteban A. Maringolo
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:18 AM Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> wrote:
Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project.
Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid.
Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit.
Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation.
The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that.
Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself.
Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary".
As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage.
But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said.
And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list.
Everyone, keep on making Pharo great.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis.
So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :)
It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not.
Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding.
Steven.
Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Hi,
it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive).
I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list.
You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder.
As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ?
NO.
No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc.
Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it.
M.R.
From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou@kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: Rauš Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz a écrit :
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention
That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition).
The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country.
I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same.
If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion.
Steven.
I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures".
Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried.
M.R.
-----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim@testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming
Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change?
Tim
On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Sven
From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think.
S
On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi,
For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master.
There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change.
Specifically:
This does not work
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit
instead you have to say
./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit
It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-)
Sven
participants (9)
-
Bernhard Pieber -
Esteban Maringolo -
Harald VICAIRE -
Martin Dias -
Miloslav.Raus＠cuzk.cz -
stephane ducasse -
Steven Costiou -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tim Mackinnon