[Pharo-project] Why a package management system
FYI, see http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820.... -- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser
So you are educating them.... Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. Stef On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
FYI, see
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820....
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On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
So you are educating them.... Frankly I stopped trying long time ago.
Hey Stef, no need to be so sarcastic you know - several of us are in fact in BOTH communities. IMHO we all need to remember that.
Do you think that I do not know it? Let me tell you something: - I pushed refactoring browser (without result - the only result once was a private like why do you say that refactoring is important) - SUnit (you remember that I even wrote a chapter to explain it you remember that I said that I will stop harvesting fixes if we have to put tests outside the image? I'm sur you do!) - cleaning (do you remember Kernel cleaning project?) - Better smaller images - we were the first ones to use MC for managing complex app like squeak (and some guys complained that this was stupid) and in general **each** time this was a fight so I can say that I'm fed up arguing. Stef
Hi! Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
So you are educating them.... Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. Hey Stef, no need to be so sarcastic you know - several of us are in fact in BOTH communities. IMHO we all need to remember that.
Do you think that I do not know it? [SNIP of lots of things you did in Squeak, no argument about that]
and in general **each** time this was a fight so I can say that I'm fed up arguing.
I am fully aware of the history here, as you know, but I still ask all involved (on BOTH sides) to try to remember that our two communities overlap substantially. And personally I think your characterization of the Squeak community is a tad black & white. ;) I also know you quite well Steph, after all these years, so I hardly even react when you use harsh words :) - still, lots of other people are new in our communities. I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play a "larger role". Just my 2 cents, would be interesting to hear views of other Pharaos on this subject. regards, Göran
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough. Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....) On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
So you are educating them.... Frankly I stopped trying long time ago. Hey Stef, no need to be so sarcastic you know - several of us are in fact in BOTH communities. IMHO we all need to remember that.
Do you think that I do not know it? [SNIP of lots of things you did in Squeak, no argument about that]
and in general **each** time this was a fight so I can say that I'm fed up arguing.
I am fully aware of the history here, as you know, but I still ask all involved (on BOTH sides) to try to remember that our two communities overlap substantially. And personally I think your characterization of the Squeak community is a tad black & white. ;)
I also know you quite well Steph, after all these years, so I hardly even react when you use harsh words :) - still, lots of other people are new in our communities.
I think it would be much more ... "becoming" (and fruitful) if we all could stop "trash talking" each other - especially those of us who play a "larger role".
Just my 2 cents, would be interesting to hear views of other Pharaos on this subject.
regards, Göran
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Hi! Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....)
First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :) regards, Göran
On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....)
First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :)
Is it insulting for you when I say that I felt insulted and immensely sad? Stef
Hi! Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....) First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :)
Is it insulting for you when I say that I felt insulted and immensely sad?
No, of course not, but... IMHO we have come to a point where some of us really want to work on sharing and cooperating between the two *overlapping* communities - and in that light these never ending "shots" are really not helping. And I am really trying to express this in my best humble and most respectful way, you know that. I love all the energy and work you personally pour into the Smalltalk community, you know that. I still wish you could... consider the fact I originally wrote: We overlap. And I really think the hostility is getting boring. regards, Göran
Yes and you are right. I was thinking too much about bad energy. :) Stef
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....) First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :)
Is it insulting for you when I say that I felt insulted and immensely sad?
No, of course not, but... IMHO we have come to a point where some of us really want to work on sharing and cooperating between the two *overlapping* communities - and in that light these never ending "shots" are really not helping.
And I am really trying to express this in my best humble and most respectful way, you know that. I love all the energy and work you personally pour into the Smalltalk community, you know that.
I still wish you could... consider the fact I originally wrote: We overlap. And I really think the hostility is getting boring.
regards, Göran
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A final point. Yes I was in a bad mood. When I replied to torsten. But mainly a bad mood against myself and my stupid idealistic idea that I could spend good energy fixing the world I like. Now I decided to spend it in Pharo. Stef On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....)
First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :)
regards, Göran
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
If that was fixing the "World" (you know what I mean) then I understand :-) Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stéphane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> To: <Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Why a package management system A final point. Yes I was in a bad mood. When I replied to torsten. But mainly a bad mood against myself and my stupid idealistic idea that I could spend good energy fixing the world I like. Now I decided to spend it in Pharo. Stef On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Göran Krampe wrote:
Hi!
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
You are probably right. I should not read squeak-dev anymore I spent my time trying to show that there is NO contradiction between innovation/fun and good and clean system. But I'm not fun enough or smart enough.
Stef (a etoy haters that was so stupid that he translated the book of etoy in french, an idiot that wrote most of the squeak books available right now, one of the four amigos that created the squeak foundation, a guy that did this stupid squeak 3.9 - you know stef this guy without any vision that just wants a "commercial smalltalk" puck! No innovation just plain engineering ....)
First you write "You are probably right" and then you write the above, you just can't stop can you? :)
regards, Göran
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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Goran another meta remark :) may be some people said in squeak-dev that we were not these bad guys after all and that we did some great stuff after all even if this was bitcounting and cleaning the dust bean and were kind of somehow right but I do not remember having seen people saying sometimes when we are implicitly mentioned in bad press. But this is life :) Stef Let me repeat myself again: I would love to see smalltalk/pharo used to do advanced UI, multitouch software, advanced multimedia applications, and any kind of advanced on the edge experimental attempt to change the world. I would love to convince my colleague http://insitu.lri.fr/metisse/ that smalltalk is as good as Python and C++ for that. For use there was never any opposition between good software engineering practices and innovation.
I think this scenario of usage is really great! Good work Torsten. Would be a shame that this example got lost in the emails list. For starting from scratch and getting to know metacello is perfect. Could the Metacello group add it to the web page? Or a link in the Pharo website, in a tutorials section? Fernando On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
FYI, see
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820....
-- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser
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I will put a page up on the wiki with Torsten's message ... I agree that Torsten did a good job! Dale ----- "Fernando olivero" <oliverof@lu.unisi.ch> wrote: | I think this scenario of usage is really great! Good work Torsten. | | Would be a shame that this example got lost in the emails list. | For starting from scratch and getting to know metacello is perfect. | | Could the Metacello group add it to the web page? Or a link in the | Pharo website, in a tutorials section? | | Fernando | | On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote: | | > FYI, see | > | > | http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820.... | > | > | > -- | > Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - | > jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! | http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Pharo-project mailing list | > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr | > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project | | | _______________________________________________ | Pharo-project mailing list | Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr | http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Mariano and me are writing a chapter about metacello. We can put a draft on the web. Stef On Feb 22, 2010, at 8:32 AM, Fernando olivero wrote:
I think this scenario of usage is really great! Good work Torsten.
Would be a shame that this example got lost in the emails list. For starting from scratch and getting to know metacello is perfect.
Could the Metacello group add it to the web page? Or a link in the Pharo website, in a tutorials section?
Fernando
On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:12 AM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
FYI, see
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820....
-- Sicherer, schneller und einfacher. Die aktuellen Internet-Browser - jetzt kostenlos herunterladen! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser
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2010/2/22 Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de>
FYI, see
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2010-February/144820....
Incredible. Your answer are always very valuable. Little comment. You said: "He creates a class "ConfigurationOfMyDatabaseDriver" since he learned that Metacello uses a simple class with methods to describe the load order and version of the packages that fit together." Maybe I am wrong, but I think that you SHOULDN'T be aware of the order. I mean, you should be able to write all the spec package: in ANY order and that should still work perfectly. The order is not defined by the order of the spec package: but using the required. Of course, maybe there are exceptions, but most of the time, the order should be determined by the dependencies (requires:) and not by the natural order of the invocations to spec package: Thanks again for this wonderful answer. I will incorporate most of that in the Metacello chapter. Can I ? Cheers Mariano --
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participants (7)
-
Dale Henrichs -
Fernando olivero -
Gary Chambers -
Göran Krampe -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Torsten Bergmann