[Pharo-project] Default code browser
Hi! I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>wrote:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good machines.
Cheers, Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good machines.
I do not know what you mean by REALLY slow, but I find the latency of the package browser perfectly acceptable. If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a number of people systematically switching to the package browser. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>wrote:
I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good machines.
I do not know what you mean by REALLY slow, but I find the latency of the package browser perfectly acceptable.
More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package.
If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a number of people systematically switching to the package browser.
Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package.
?? There should be something wrong with your config. I have the following result: [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: MOGraphElement selector: #displayOn] timeToRun => 810 [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun => 1380 I have a macbook pro. I am more concerned with the user aspect point of view of Pharo. All my students prefer the package browser. This says something I feel. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>wrote:
More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package.
?? There should be something wrong with your config. I have the following result: [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: MOGraphElement selector: #displayOn] timeToRun => 810
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun => 1380
you put the same browser twice and I don't have the class MOGraphElement ;) Anyway, I tried with the class GraphMorph same selector: O2PackageBrowser: 1407 O2SystemBrowser: 422 OBSystemBrowser: 487 Cheers Mariano
I have a macbook pro. I am more concerned with the user aspect point of view of Pharo. All my students prefer the package browser. This says something I feel.
Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc.
There should be something wrong with your config. I have the following result: [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: MOGraphElement selector: #displayOn] timeToRun => 810
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun => 1380
you put the same browser twice and I don't have the class MOGraphElement ;)
I was checking whether the package browser takes more than 1 sec to open. This is the case for a very big class only (Object) [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: GraphMorph selector: #clear] timeToRun => 1117
Anyway, I tried with the class GraphMorph same selector:
O2PackageBrowser: 1407 O2SystemBrowser: 422 OBSystemBrowser: 487
I am not saying that package browser is fast. I am just saying that its features overcome its slowness for some people (and more than 3 or 4). I am just a bit concerned about the fact that O2SystemBrowser is the default browser. But if I am the only one, no problem at all then. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
I use Package Browser, because I find it more confortable, but anyway: [O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 1236 [O2SystemBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 578 So, there is a big difference. I'm on a macbook aluminium Cheers, Esteban On 2009-12-17 18:34:20 -0300, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu> said:
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun
Concerning the speed. I've measured the same things you did, and on Pharo 1.1, its about 25% faster than Pharo 1.0. Which is nice, very nice. Regards, Bart On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:27 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>wrote:
I use Package Browser, because I find it more confortable, but anyway:
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 1236
[O2SystemBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun. 578
So, there is a big difference.
I'm on a macbook aluminium
Cheers, Esteban
On 2009-12-17 18:34:20 -0300, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu> said:
[O2PackageBrowser openOnClass: Object selector: #printString] timeToRun
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On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu> wrote:
I don't use it, and I think all the people that don't use it is for the same reason, and it is because it is REALLY slow. Even in good machines.
I do not know what you mean by REALLY slow, but I find the latency of the package browser perfectly acceptable.
More than one second to open the brower. More than one second to go to another method, etc. Anyway, for me its the same as I can change it when I download an image. We can do a poll if you want, but I think someone (david, lukas or I don't know who) is working in a better browser with a faster package.
I'm slowly making progress on the new package support I have some red tests that I should fix. After I will be able to start thinking about the integration within MC convention. And there will be a lot of bugs... so I will need help.
If people prefer the system browser, then fine with me. I just saw a number of people systematically switching to the package browser.
Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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Hi, What about a survey? Let's learn something from strategic marketing and actually find out what users prefer :) -What browser do you prefer? --OBSystemBrowser --OBPackageBrowser --Classic System Browser --Classic Package Browser -Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? -Do you use refactoring tools? -Do you use code completion? -What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? etc. Hernán 2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-What browser do you prefer? --OBPackageBrowser Yes, david's browser
-Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes. (strange question by the way, someone will say no?)
-Do you use refactoring tools? Of course.
-Do you use code completion? Yes.
-What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work?
Package Browser :-) Mondrian, Moose, Glamour, MC, Metacello. Alexandre
2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Re Shout, someone _could_ say no, but Shout is generally not a bottleneck that I can see. It is a must. Refactoring tools: I use what works and works well. Sorry, but that's not much of it. I just had it let me down today on a pull-up operation. I probably could have fiddled and gotten it to work, but it was just plain easier to do it myself. I "never" use refactorings that lead to reformatting of my code. There has long been talk of getting to a point of respecting existing formatting, but I have nothing on hold over it. Code completion: no. I type very fast, and it just gets in the way. I _might_ use it in the debugger where there is more context to help it make good decisions, but for now, turning it off is one of the first things in my build script. Re the various browsers, they are not terribly well identified, so it takes work to figure out what I am using. I found the package browser to be VERY slow - too slow for normal use. I select the standard toolset. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Alexandre Bergel Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 4:46 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Default code browser
-What browser do you prefer? --OBPackageBrowser Yes, david's browser
-Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes. (strange question by the way, someone will say no?)
-Do you use refactoring tools? Of course.
-Do you use code completion? Yes.
-What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work?
Package Browser :-) Mondrian, Moose, Glamour, MC, Metacello. Alexandre
2009/12/17 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Re the various browsers, they are not terribly well identified, so it takes work to figure out what I am using.
+1 here Other than that, I find that none of the browsers are at this stage great yet from an intuitive, usability point of view (mind you, I consider myself to be very 'newbie'). I am also looking at Pharo + Seaside or AIDAWeb mainly as an IDE tool to create web apps as I am not that interested (or skilled for that matter) in tinkering with the core. I am hoping that the new package management system (MetaCello in Pharo 1.1?) will streamline some of the confusion and allow the user to have the option to somehow hide "system" or Pharo-Core packages from the IDE. I could be wrong here, but methods of a class can be nicely organized using protocols ... and then there is this whole vague, confusing world of how classes are managed in categories and packages ... but the term package could actually also refer to a category, which is actually a package, but a package can also be a Monticello package, which could be different than the category or should I say package? All this may make perfect sense to the gurus but it is extremely confusing, because packages also need to be able to be grouped into projects (is this the term?) and have dependencies on other packages and/or projects? I haven't even mentioned the confusion of SqueakMap/PharoMap, SqueakSouce/PharoSource, Monticello and Universes. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4185502.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
You didn't ask, but here's how I see it on pakages :) PackageInfo **ABUSES** method categories to associate methods with packages. Methods should be able to belong to multiple categories (you won't miss it until you can do it), and to one package. Dolphin also has a class category option, but I am not aware that anyone ever found it useful - packages are enough to categorize classes. I don't know a nice way to say it: if you are confused about packages, ditch the package browser for a while. I have not used it for a few versions, but I was shocked at how slow it could be, and began to suspect that its behavior was (queue throat-clearing.wav) not deterministic. Another possibility (if this level of re-entrancy is possible??) is that it is SO slow that one fails to appreciate that it is still crunching on the organization?? Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of GeertClaes Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 3:48 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Default code browser Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Re the various browsers, they are not terribly well identified, so it takes work to figure out what I am using.
+1 here Other than that, I find that none of the browsers are at this stage great yet from an intuitive, usability point of view (mind you, I consider myself to be very 'newbie'). I am also looking at Pharo + Seaside or AIDAWeb mainly as an IDE tool to create web apps as I am not that interested (or skilled for that matter) in tinkering with the core. I am hoping that the new package management system (MetaCello in Pharo 1.1?) will streamline some of the confusion and allow the user to have the option to somehow hide "system" or Pharo-Core packages from the IDE. I could be wrong here, but methods of a class can be nicely organized using protocols ... and then there is this whole vague, confusing world of how classes are managed in categories and packages ... but the term package could actually also refer to a category, which is actually a package, but a package can also be a Monticello package, which could be different than the category or should I say package? All this may make perfect sense to the gurus but it is extremely confusing, because packages also need to be able to be grouped into projects (is this the term?) and have dependencies on other packages and/or projects? I haven't even mentioned the confusion of SqueakMap/PharoMap, SqueakSouce/PharoSource, Monticello and Universes. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4185502.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
You didn't ask, but here's how I see it on pakages :) PackageInfo **ABUSES** method categories to associate methods with packages. Methods should be able to belong to multiple categories (you won't miss it until you can do it), and to one package. Dolphin also has a class category option, but I am not aware that anyone ever found it useful - packages are enough to categorize classes.
I think I am with you that class categories are probably a bit overkill here since these class types are already grouped in separate (monticello) packages . Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
I don't know a nice way to say it: if you are confused about packages, ditch the package browser for a while. I have not used it for a few versions, but I was shocked at how slow it could be, and began to suspect that its behavior was (queue throat-clearing.wav) not deterministic. Another possibility (if this level of re-entrancy is possible??) is that it is SO slow that one fails to appreciate that it is still crunching on the organization??
It's not just that I am a bit confused or think the package browser is too slow, from a usability point of view it just does not make sense to me that it seems so complicated to load/share packages from other projects and/or components. Maybe this discussion belongs more in the 'Pharo IDE usability (was Re: Pharo for Professional Development) ' thread now? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4187788.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
When I said the package browser+MC was not deterministic, I meant it. My experience was that _sometimes_ packages would be created from categories, and sometimes not. Things get more clear if you fire up the MC GUI and explicitly create a package. Then it suffices (with the other browsers at least) to put a class in the corresponding category, and to categorize methods with *packageName (yuk!!!!, but it works). There are MC tutorials, and you should read one if you have not already done so. My biggest gripe is that I find myself being forced (AFAIK) to type category names far more often than should be the case. There is what appears to be "recent categories" list but it is both hard to read and (I suspect[*]) not predictable. May the overseers be with you if you ever type something with a bad mix of capitalization - deleting the offending package never seems to rid the image of it. As Murphey would have it, type something wrong and the tools never forget; type something correct and you will end up typing it again, at least until you no longer need it :( That is based on fixing a many badly-formatted category names created by SIF. FWIW, I have learned how to use the regex package to make changes to a .sif file before loading it into Pharo, which is a nice way to go. For now, I get along fairly well and am looking forward to a new package system. What I find beyond comprehension is that the rough spots have not been fixed. In my relatively short time making real use of Pharo, I have found it essential to "clone" tools that I use in Dolphin to manage packages. The core of it is no longer an absolute must in Dolphin, mostly because its package system has improved over the years. However, I have something that attempts to identify "your" work that is not assigned to one of a collection of packages identified to it, provides one-shot saving of those packages, and can "easily" be loaded into a new image and load the packages into it. It is rough around the edges, but I plan to make it available to anyone who wants it after it settled down a little more. One thing I would like to be able to do is to create separate .mcz files for Migrate-core and Mirgrate-uf, with assurance that **nothing** from Migrate-uf will end up in Migrate-core.mcz. So far, that is not happening, perhaps my fault. Since I have been spouting complaints all day, I should mention that I have noted that a Pharo image has been serving a Seaside app off of a vmware based win2k3 machine, and has done so with higher reliability than vmware itself, or so it seems. I have frequent problems with network routing, but it appears to happen only when pings fail to the offending host, and magically gets fixed when the pings begin to succeed again. Any déjà vu?? I'd like to hear about how you fixed it. Reports on the net suggest that it could be a known and long-standing defect. I have also had DNS related hassles, but is really no surprise. Years ago, I learned the hard way to disable XP's DNS cache service; it is said to be essential to win2k3, and I hesitate to learn the hard way on a vm. In short, Pharo sucks a LOT less than Windows :) Bill [*] Not meaning to spread FUD, just being honest about my observations. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of GeertClaes Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:31 PM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Default code browser Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
You didn't ask, but here's how I see it on pakages :) PackageInfo **ABUSES** method categories to associate methods with packages. Methods should be able to belong to multiple categories (you won't miss it until you can do it), and to one package. Dolphin also has a class category option, but I am not aware that anyone ever found it useful - packages are enough to categorize classes.
I think I am with you that class categories are probably a bit overkill here since these class types are already grouped in separate (monticello) packages . Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
I don't know a nice way to say it: if you are confused about packages, ditch the package browser for a while. I have not used it for a few versions, but I was shocked at how slow it could be, and began to suspect that its behavior was (queue throat-clearing.wav) not deterministic. Another possibility (if this level of re-entrancy is possible??) is that it is SO slow that one fails to appreciate that it is still crunching on the organization??
It's not just that I am a bit confused or think the package browser is too slow, from a usability point of view it just does not make sense to me that it seems so complicated to load/share packages from other projects and/or components. Maybe this discussion belongs more in the 'Pharo IDE usability (was Re: Pharo for Professional Development) ' thread now? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4187788.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Ok, then my own answers, although I thought a survey is a nice thing to have in the web site (people love to take surveys :)
-What browser do you prefer? OBSystemBrowser
-Do you want syntax colorising enabled by default? Yes (it's a question I ask myself everytime I just open a Pharo-Core image :)
-Do you use refactoring tools? Yes
-Do you use code completion? No
-What tool do you consider a must for Pharo in your daily work? -ScriptManager -KeyMapper -Code Coverage -CHB with Hierarchy Integration -Resources Browser -Memory Monitor -MessageSpy
Hernán
I would like a mix of the three ;). For me O2PackageBrowserAdaptor is great for - monticello integration - package, hier. groups views, - history navigation - explicit icons OBSystemBrowserAdaptor for - speed - the toolbar (browse, hierarchie, variables, ...) and especially "versions" button Browser for: - speed - class comment panel To explore the system I use O2PackageBrowserAdaptor, to write code I use OBSystemBrowserAdaptor. For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen - split code panel like emacs/vi to edit/view several methods at once Cheers, Laurent On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>wrote:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre
Exactly! Alexandre On 18 Dec 2009, at 08:02, laurent laffont wrote:
I would like a mix of the three ;). For me
O2PackageBrowserAdaptor is great for - monticello integration - package, hier. groups views, - history navigation - explicit icons
OBSystemBrowserAdaptor for - speed - the toolbar (browse, hierarchie, variables, ...) and especially "versions" button
Browser for: - speed - class comment panel
To explore the system I use O2PackageBrowserAdaptor, to write code I use OBSystemBrowserAdaptor.
For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen - split code panel like emacs/vi to edit/view several methods at once
Cheers,
Laurent
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu> wrote: Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen
How are tabs different to the taskbar with all windows maximized? I implemented tabs for OB a few years back, but then came the taskbar which i found more useful (and faster). Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com> wrote:
For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen
How are tabs different to the taskbar with all windows maximized?
I want to see Transcript / Workspace / .... at the same time. But I will try to work the way you do. I've also played with layouts trying to have windows behave like Ion ( http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/intro.html)...
I implemented tabs for OB a few years back, but then came the taskbar which i found more useful (and faster).
OK Laurent
2009/12/18 Lukas Renggli <renggli@gmail.com>:
How are tabs different to the taskbar with all windows maximized?
I think it's a common practice to have more than one browser opened with different methods in each. I usually have three or more. One for a test. One or more for the method being tested. And one or more for the system navigation. I also usually have workspaces, debugger and so one. So I think it is helpful to be in the context of one tool (Browser) when jumping from one method to another and leave the taskbar to hold other tools. Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo. Cheers, George
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4186933.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
2009/12/18 GeertClaes <geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>:
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour?
I don't now. IIRC someone on the list mentioned that Glamour can't be used to build real browsers for now, but I may be wrong. I wonder, if it can be done using OB? It would be cool if it was possible. Recently I loaded it into Pharo but it relies on some missing classes and expects some old behaviour from underlying libraries. It worked somehow but it has some visual artefacts (for example boxes for tree menu items are smaller than the text they contain; see in the attachment). And of course in lacks all the cool stuff OB has. Cheers, George
2009/12/18 George Herolyants <george.herolyants@gmail.com>
2009/12/18 GeertClaes <geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>:
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour?
I don't now. IIRC someone on the list mentioned that Glamour can't be used to build real browsers for now, but I may be wrong. I wonder, if it can be done using OB? It would be cool if it was possible. Recently I loaded it into Pharo but it relies on some missing classes and expects some old behaviour from underlying libraries. It worked somehow but it has some visual artefacts (for example boxes for tree menu items are smaller than the text they contain; see in the attachment). And of course in lacks all the cool stuff OB has.
Cheers, George
I've just tried Whisker on Pharo... buggy but there's some great ideas inside !! Laurent
Yes gather together publish it on squeaksource and fix it. Stef On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:20 PM, laurent laffont wrote:
2009/12/18 George Herolyants <george.herolyants@gmail.com> 2009/12/18 GeertClaes <geert.wl.claes@gmail.com>:
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour?
I don't now. IIRC someone on the list mentioned that Glamour can't be used to build real browsers for now, but I may be wrong. I wonder, if it can be done using OB? It would be cool if it was possible. Recently I loaded it into Pharo but it relies on some missing classes and expects some old behaviour from underlying libraries. It worked somehow but it has some visual artefacts (for example boxes for tree menu items are smaller than the text they contain; see in the attachment). And of course in lacks all the cool stuff OB has.
Cheers, George
I've just tried Whisker on Pharo... buggy but there's some great ideas inside !!
Laurent _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On of the idea is to use glamour to experiment new browsers and probably to write it from scratch when we know what is really good. Ideally I like the multiple method showing of whisker but not the rest david implemented that in OB. I like the fact that O2 supports the view of class extension view per packages Now I avoid to talk about browsers because we do not have somebody in the community working heavily on that beside david and david may leave once he will finish his PhD. Now OB metamodel does not support tree and make it difficult to have something like the class comment visible close to the class definition. On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:47 PM, GeertClaes wrote:
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4186933.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
On of the idea is to use glamour to experiment new browsers and probably to write it from scratch when we know what is really good.
What I have seen so far I have to say I really like Glamour! I like a lot of Pharo stuff and can't wait to see the next package management system in 1.1. Go Pharo :) -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4190785.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I tried whisker on Squeak years ago and hated it. A clean CHB that offers easy ways to spawn new browsers, can be filtered to subsets of the class hierarchy, and has a history for easy forward-back/recent navigation is the way to go IMHO. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 3:44 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Default code browser On of the idea is to use glamour to experiment new browsers and probably to write it from scratch when we know what is really good. Ideally I like the multiple method showing of whisker but not the rest david implemented that in OB. I like the fact that O2 supports the view of class extension view per packages Now I avoid to talk about browsers because we do not have somebody in the community working heavily on that beside david and david may leave once he will finish his PhD. Now OB metamodel does not support tree and make it difficult to have something like the class comment visible close to the class definition. On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:47 PM, GeertClaes wrote:
George Herolyants-3 wrote:
Though I think WhiskerBrowser still covers the above use case better. Unfortunately it doesn't run on Pharo.
Maybe WhiskerBrowser can be created using Glamour? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Default-code-browser-tp4183317p4186933.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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Talking about browsers, I use to use more than one as Laurent. And have a question, OB don't have a "recent (r)" menu as Classic Browser that permit to have at hand the last used classes? This is very useful to me. Cheers. Germán. 2009/12/18 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
I would like a mix of the three ;). For me O2PackageBrowserAdaptor is great for - monticello integration - package, hier. groups views, - history navigation - explicit icons OBSystemBrowserAdaptor for - speed - the toolbar (browse, hierarchie, variables, ...) and especially "versions" button Browser for: - speed - class comment panel To explore the system I use  O2PackageBrowserAdaptor, to write code I use OBSystemBrowserAdaptor. For Christmas, I would like :) - tab support because my laptop has a small screen - split code panel like emacs/vi to edit/view several methods at once Cheers, Laurent On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu> wrote:
Hi!
I saw many people using the package browser instead of OBSystemBrowserAdaptor, even if this last is faster and has less bug. I am just wondering whether reverting the default browser to O2PackageBrowser is not something we should consider.
Cheers, Alexandre
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participants (13)
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Bart Gauquie -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Geert Claes -
GeertClaes
-
George Herolyants -
Germán Arduino -
Hernán Morales Durand -
laurent laffont -
Lukas Renggli -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse