Hi guys, I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain. I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases. Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo? Uko
Hi Yuriy, I can't really comment on the overal questions you are asking. But please keep in mind that Apple's Cocoa has had a little bit more resource behind it, for many decades, of course they have a nice design and excellent documentation. I actually have a calculator project which contains a Spec GUI and Seaside GUI on the same model ready, with shared unit tests at the model and both GUI levels. I even use some kind of meta spec to generate both GUIs automatically. My goal is to write a Pharo tutorial about that. But I need more time (I haven't started yet). I'll see what I can do. Overall, although Spec is new to me, I found it acceptable for building functional GUIs. Sven On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 18 Jun 2014, at 12:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
Hi Yuriy,
I can't really comment on the overal questions you are asking. But please keep in mind that Apple's Cocoa has had a little bit more resource behind it, for many decades, of course they have a nice design and excellent documentation.
I'm not telling that Spec is bad. In fact I like it. I'm just telling than maybe we should write a tutorial on how to develop UI in Pharo. Uko
I actually have a calculator project which contains a Spec GUI and Seaside GUI on the same model ready, with shared unit tests at the model and both GUI levels. I even use some kind of meta spec to generate both GUIs automatically. My goal is to write a Pharo tutorial about that. But I need more time (I haven't started yet). I'll see what I can do.
Overall, although Spec is new to me, I found it acceptable for building functional GUIs.
Sven
On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
Did you check that in Phro for the entreprise there is a calculator tutorial based on spec. Sven I'm interested reading yours. Yuriy if you give us 1% of the money spent on Cocoa pharo will not look the same at all. Did you see that most of us are not payed to develop pharo? Stef On 18/6/14 12:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Hi Yuriy,
I can't really comment on the overal questions you are asking. But please keep in mind that Apple's Cocoa has had a little bit more resource behind it, for many decades, of course they have a nice design and excellent documentation.
I actually have a calculator project which contains a Spec GUI and Seaside GUI on the same model ready, with shared unit tests at the model and both GUI levels. I even use some kind of meta spec to generate both GUIs automatically. My goal is to write a Pharo tutorial about that. But I need more time (I haven't started yet). I'll see what I can do.
Overall, although Spec is new to me, I found it acceptable for building functional GUIs.
Sven
On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
Yes Stef, I know. And in the end Iâve made and adapter for CodeCity: http://quick.as/blq9f5d1 cool, no? We all get frustrated from time to time, I just wanted to point out that we need a straightforward tutorial on building apps with UIs. And Spec is not bad. And I will take a look at the tutorial in Pharo for the Enterprise. Have a nice Friday. Uko On 20 Jun 2014, at 08:39, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Did you check that in Phro for the entreprise there is a calculator tutorial based on spec.
Sven I'm interested reading yours.
Yuriy if you give us 1% of the money spent on Cocoa pharo will not look the same at all. Did you see that most of us are not payed to develop pharo?
Stef
On 18/6/14 12:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Hi Yuriy,
I can't really comment on the overal questions you are asking. But please keep in mind that Apple's Cocoa has had a little bit more resource behind it, for many decades, of course they have a nice design and excellent documentation.
I actually have a calculator project which contains a Spec GUI and Seaside GUI on the same model ready, with shared unit tests at the model and both GUI levels. I even use some kind of meta spec to generate both GUIs automatically. My goal is to write a Pharo tutorial about that. But I need more time (I haven't started yet). I'll see what I can do.
Overall, although Spec is new to me, I found it acceptable for building functional GUIs.
Sven
On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
On 20 Jun 2014, at 08:39, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Did you check that in Phro for the entreprise there is a calculator tutorial based on spec.
Sven I'm interested reading yours.
I am in the process of writing, pushed a bit by Yuriy's questions, but these things take time and are a lot of work, as you know. What I am doing is a bit different, there is a whole backdrop story, even an introduction to Pharo, the code itself - which has been ready for quite some time - is more sophisticated and shorter at the same time, there is specification based programming at more than one level, including cool functional tests. The end result is more impressive I think. I'll send you some screenshots in private.
I understand your frustration, but writing doc takes time. I have a more industry oriented example in polishing mode Ben On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
On 18 Jun 2014, at 12:31, Benjamin <Benjamin.VanRyseghem.Pharo@gmail.com> wrote:
I understand your frustration, but writing doc takes time.
:)
I have a more industry oriented example in polishing mode
Cool, Iâm looking forward for that. Uko
Ben
On 18 Jun 2014, at 11:40, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Hi guys,
I was very frustrated, but as usually complaints are useless, Iâll try to be constructive. Maybe the problem is not about Spec itself but all the UI related tool-chain.
I find UI very fragile part in software design. And by now Iâve seen only 2 very nice documentations on how to develop UI (with MVC). One was for Ruby on Rails, and another was for iOS applications. Documentation was straightforward: 1) this is how your model, view and controller should look like, 2) this is how they have to talk, 3) other useful cases.
Now, there is description about how to do something with Spec, and itâs cool, but for example I always get myself caught in initialisation stuff. Spec intends that I provide some default solution if itâs not initialised with proper data. And I even cannot initialise some variables, because initialisation of superclass initialises widgets and they need default behaviour. I can move to sort of lazy initialisation stuff, but maybe there is some reason in making some calculator example tutorial that will show how mvc apps should be developed in Pharo?
Uko
participants (4)
-
Benjamin -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Yuriy Tymchuk