Dear fellow Smalltalkers For me to test new features of SqueakSource3 and for you to have a look on new features and fixed bugs, I have created http://canary.netshed.de/ which is the most recent, say alpha, deployment of SqueakSource3. It contains features that are not yet deployed at other ss3 sites, including the gemstone one. I cannot make any guaranty that code commited to the canary will survive forever; it is a play toy, so go play with it :) Attached a teaser image. Best -Tobias
Thanks tobias. To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but my plate is full and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue. Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the name is not PharoHub) would make more sense? Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for business. And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo. I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban and many more to be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo. Stef On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Tobias Pape <Das.Linux@gmx.de> wrote:
Dear fellow Smalltalkers
For me to test new features of SqueakSource3 and for you to have a look on new features and fixed bugs, I have created
which is the most recent, say alpha, deployment of SqueakSource3. It contains features that are not yet deployed at other ss3 sites, including the gemstone one. I cannot make any guaranty that code commited to the canary will survive forever; it is a play toy, so go play with it :)
Attached a teaser image.
Best -Tobias
<BrowsingSS3Canary.PNG>
Hello. Am 29.06.2013 um 09:37 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Thanks tobias.
To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but my plate is full and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue.
That was uncalled for. Stéphane Ducasse, what is it you want to tell me? Whatever emotion or reaction you wanted to transport, you effected borderline insult and accusation. First, I just opened a tool I am maintaining for public participation. Recall: âFor me to test new features of SqueakSource3 â¦â. What, please tell me, what makes this incarnation of SS3 âeven more Squeak centricâ? That it is run on GemStone? That I developed it in the SeasideOneClick image (which happens to be a Pharo one)? Mon dieu, seulement le mot «Squeak«, la partie du mot «SqueakSource». Do you want to hold me accountable for not changing a long standing product name? Second, what has the delivery and continuation of Pharo to do with my service of offering a canary SS3 instance? Do you care to elaborate?
Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the name is not PharoHub) would make more sense?
Are we playing on names now? There are instances of SqueakSource out there that are not primarily used for Squeak. Just the name does not make anything fixed to that, thank you. But content-wise, what is it that should attract me more to SH than what attracts me currently to SS3? Look: 1. I happen to have started SS3 in 2008/2009 to support the SqueakSource instance that that is running at my University. That is the only reason. 2. I have tried to improve and integrate many different features present in different SqueakSources and in that course, SqueakSource3 emerged about around four (4) years ago. And I know that you were aware of it. 3. I can only invest my leisure time into SqueakSource, and I feel committed to _NOT_ abandon existing infrastructure; at least three websites out there run SqueakSource, if not more. I would feel unreasonable to just drop them. 4. How, up until now, should I have known that joint effort is welcomed or even possible? IIRC, at the 2010 ESUG in Barcelona, you publicly asked about what to do with the unstable SqueakSource. I don't know whether I talked directly to you or Marcus or whomever, but I offered intensive collaboration. I never hear back of y'all. Some time later, SmalltalkHub was started. Have you ever felt being stamped on? Have you ever felt slapped in the face? I had, then.
Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for business.
Yes I know. While I am not 100% sure, what the exact stack is, I know that Amber, Iliad, and GemStone are cool, I like them really. But I also think that the Seaside-Magritte-GemStone-Nginx stack is also cool.
And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo.
Please do, you have my full support. However, what does that have to do with either SqueakSource3 or SmalltalkHub? The tools I have built or collaborated with run in Pharo, so what is the deal?
I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban and many more to be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo.
We are all able to decide whether we want to have a cool job with Pharo. But please don't judge me that my image of Smalltalk is broader than just Pharo. A bientôt, -Tobias PS: On style. a) Is a rant a proper reaction to an announcement? Isn't that like criticizing alpha software using a bug list? b) The first words of a text set its impression with the reader. The first words of the email accused me of Squeak-centricsim, as if it actually was something to be accused of. c) The last words of a text stay in mind. The last words of the email are selective in people and Smalltalk dialect. They make you _sound_ like you don't want not as smart guys on Pharo and, more importantly, you don't want people on any other Smalltalk than Pharo. This is unbecoming for a president of an organization that represents european users of _all_ Smalltalk dialects. Do you?
Thanks tobias.
To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but my plate is full and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue.
That was uncalled for. Stéphane Ducasse, what is it you want to tell me? Whatever emotion or reaction you wanted to transport, you effected borderline insult and accusation.
seriously? This was not my intention.
First, I just opened a tool I am maintaining for public participation. Recall: âFor me to test new features of SqueakSource3 â¦â. What, please tell me, what makes this incarnation of SS3 âeven more Squeak centricâ? That it is run on GemStone? That I developed it in the SeasideOneClick image (which happens to be a Pharo one)? Mon dieu, seulement le mot «Squeak«, la partie du mot «SqueakSource». Do you want to hold me accountable for not changing a long standing product name?
I think that you are overreacting. I'm just saying that instead of maintaining and developing two forges having a good one would be better.
Second, what has the delivery and continuation of Pharo to do with my service of offering a canary SS3 instance? Do you care to elaborate?
I simply do not have the time to maintain multiple resources of documents (you know Chapter like Gofer), gofer apiâ¦. Just yesterday we updated the SS3 part to use the new URL.
Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the name is not PharoHub) would make more sense?
Are we playing on names now? There are instances of SqueakSource out there that are not primarily used for Squeak. Just the name does not make anything fixed to that, thank you. But content-wise, what is it that should attract me more to SH than what attracts me currently to SS3?
- Speed. - Team management - Momentum
Look: 1. I happen to have started SS3 in 2008/2009 to support the SqueakSource instance that that is running at my University. That is the only reason.
I can understand it
2. I have tried to improve and integrate many different features present in different SqueakSources and in that course, SqueakSource3 emerged about around four (4) years ago. And I know that you were aware of it.
sure I do not deny it. Now my point is that Nicolas invested a lot of time in building a new scalable infrastructure. If you want to continue maintaining SS3 why not? this is your time and energy. I'm just saying that I would like to avoid to Tobias my goal is not to be against Squeak. I gave to Squeak a lot more than any average squeaker. MY GOAL IS TO OFFER AN ECONOMICAL COMPETITIVE ECOSYSTEM TO PEOPLE WILLING TO INVEST INTO SOFTWARE IN SMALLTALK and this in the context of JS, Lua, Python, Rails.
3. I can only invest my leisure time into SqueakSource, and I feel committed to _NOT_ abandon existing infrastructure; at least three websites out there run SqueakSource, if not more. I would feel unreasonable to just drop them.
Ok but you could join SmalltalkHub too. We gave up on Squeaksource code. Look on SS3 we cannot even browse project lists. So this is why we decided to push and SmalltalkHub. Nicolas is using some of his time to improve it because we ask him.
4. How, up until now, should I have known that joint effort is welcomed or even possible?
Nicolas always announced that SmalltalkHub is open-source and that people can help and join. May be you did not see it. But it was always like that.
IIRC, at the 2010 ESUG in Barcelona, you publicly asked about what to do with the unstable SqueakSource.
Probably I'm always worried about providing good infrastructure
I don't know whether I talked directly to you or Marcus or whomever, but I offered intensive collaboration.
Probably me. But you know I have multiple lives and doing far too many things and it was 3 years ago. You know we are doing many things and ESUG saw that SS was in danger so we (THE BOARD) decided that it was good to push a new service to the community.
I never hear back of y'all. Some time later, SmalltalkHub was started. Have you ever felt being stamped on? Have you ever felt slapped in the face? I had, then.
Ok it was not our intention to hurt you or by pass you. may be sending a little mail would have solved that feeling. We were just looking at a solution because this is 4 years that Squeaksource is running on a slow machine and was backup from time to time.
Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for business.
Yes I know. While I am not 100% sure, what the exact stack is, I know that Amber, Iliad, and GemStone are cool, I like them really. But I also think that the Seaside-Magritte-GemStone-Nginx stack is also cool.
Amber, Seaside, Voyage, Mongo
And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo.
Please do, you have my full support. However, what does that have to do with either SqueakSource3 or SmalltalkHub?
It has to do with having one good infrastructure and I was thinking ok if tobias would help in SmalltalkHub then SmalltalkHub would be better (I'm not talking about the website - but the software stack).
The tools I have built or collaborated with run in Pharo, so what is the deal?
Split of energy. If we have two guys working on the same forge then this is better than two guys working on two different forges.
I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban and many more to be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo.
We are all able to decide whether we want to have a cool job with Pharo.
:) Only if there are jobs!
But please don't judge me that my image of Smalltalk is broader than just Pharo.
You think that mine is narrow minded :).
A bientôt, -Tobias
PS: On style. a) Is a rant a proper reaction to an announcement?
It was not a rant.
Isn't that like criticizing alpha software using a bug list? b) The first words of a text set its impression with the reader. The first words of the email accused me of Squeak-centricsim, as if it actually was something to be accused of.
You see I'm not in the squeak mailing-list so I do not see how I could give feedback as a user of SqueakSource3* without being in the squeakmaili
c) The last words of a text stay in mind. The last words of the email are selective in people and Smalltalk dialect.
Sure you know more than me. you know of course that the last engineer that quitted my team is a VW engineer. You also know that I suggested to some students doing pharo to apply to the recent VW job offers. You know so much about me that you can judge as being so narrow minded.
They make you _sound_ like you don't want not as smart guys on Pharo and, more importantly, you don't want people on any other Smalltalk than Pharo.
Build a sexy one (but for real) and I will use it instead of burning my energy building one.
This is unbecoming for a president of an organization that represents european users of _all_ Smalltalk dialects. Do you?
Tobias when you will have 2% of what I did for our community, I will take your insults seriously. Now I just think that you are going off-road.
Thanks Tobias for the update! This version looks good, and I think moving to bootstrap was a good move :) About the competition, I don't mind it. About working on SmalltalkHub with me, I sure would be glad, but I also completely understand your point. One thing we could do though is maybe share experience (feel free to email me) and discuss about both platforms? It can always be positive. A note about stef's answer. I work with him everyday, and I can say that he for sure didn't mean to insult you. His emails can sometimes be taken the wrong way. It happened to me more than once (then I usually arrived at work and saw a friendly smile on his face). But hey, stef, sometimes you may want to read twice your emails before sending them (and then wait a day or two, read it again, and make sure you're still ok with it ;-) Cheers, Nico On Jun 30, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Thanks tobias.
To me your version of SS3 looks even more Squeak centric and this is ok but my plate is full and I'm sorry but I focus on Pharo because we must deliver and continue.
That was uncalled for. Stéphane Ducasse, what is it you want to tell me? Whatever emotion or reaction you wanted to transport, you effected borderline insult and accusation.
seriously? This was not my intention.
First, I just opened a tool I am maintaining for public participation. Recall: âFor me to test new features of SqueakSource3 â¦â. What, please tell me, what makes this incarnation of SS3 âeven more Squeak centricâ? That it is run on GemStone? That I developed it in the SeasideOneClick image (which happens to be a Pharo one)? Mon dieu, seulement le mot «Squeak«, la partie du mot «SqueakSource». Do you want to hold me accountable for not changing a long standing product name?
I think that you are overreacting. I'm just saying that instead of maintaining and developing two forges having a good one would be better.
Second, what has the delivery and continuation of Pharo to do with my service of offering a canary SS3 instance? Do you care to elaborate?
I simply do not have the time to maintain multiple resources of documents (you know Chapter like Gofer), gofer apiâ¦. Just yesterday we updated the SS3 part to use the new URL.
Now don't you think that joining effort on SmalltalkHub (did you see the name is not PharoHub) would make more sense?
Are we playing on names now? There are instances of SqueakSource out there that are not primarily used for Squeak. Just the name does not make anything fixed to that, thank you. But content-wise, what is it that should attract me more to SH than what attracts me currently to SS3?
- Speed. - Team management - Momentum
Look: 1. I happen to have started SS3 in 2008/2009 to support the SqueakSource instance that that is running at my University. That is the only reason.
I can understand it
2. I have tried to improve and integrate many different features present in different SqueakSources and in that course, SqueakSource3 emerged about around four (4) years ago. And I know that you were aware of it.
sure I do not deny it. Now my point is that Nicolas invested a lot of time in building a new scalable infrastructure. If you want to continue maintaining SS3 why not? this is your time and energy. I'm just saying that I would like to avoid to
Tobias my goal is not to be against Squeak. I gave to Squeak a lot more than any average squeaker. MY GOAL IS TO OFFER AN ECONOMICAL COMPETITIVE ECOSYSTEM TO PEOPLE WILLING TO INVEST INTO SOFTWARE IN SMALLTALK and this in the context of JS, Lua, Python, Rails.
3. I can only invest my leisure time into SqueakSource, and I feel committed to _NOT_ abandon existing infrastructure; at least three websites out there run SqueakSource, if not more. I would feel unreasonable to just drop them.
Ok but you could join SmalltalkHub too. We gave up on Squeaksource code. Look on SS3 we cannot even browse project lists. So this is why we decided to push and SmalltalkHub. Nicolas is using some of his time to improve it because we ask him.
4. How, up until now, should I have known that joint effort is welcomed or even possible?
Nicolas always announced that SmalltalkHub is open-source and that people can help and join. May be you did not see it. But it was always like that.
IIRC, at the 2010 ESUG in Barcelona, you publicly asked about what to do with the unstable SqueakSource.
Probably I'm always worried about providing good infrastructure
I don't know whether I talked directly to you or Marcus or whomever, but I offered intensive collaboration.
Probably me. But you know I have multiple lives and doing far too many things and it was 3 years ago. You know we are doing many things and ESUG saw that SS was in danger so we (THE BOARD) decided that it was good to push a new service to the community.
I never hear back of y'all. Some time later, SmalltalkHub was started. Have you ever felt being stamped on? Have you ever felt slapped in the face? I had, then.
Ok it was not our intention to hurt you or by pass you. may be sending a little mail would have solved that feeling. We were just looking at a solution because this is 4 years that Squeaksource is running on a slow machine and was backup from time to time.
Also because the stack behind is sexy and can be reused/improved for business.
Yes I know. While I am not 100% sure, what the exact stack is, I know that Amber, Iliad, and GemStone are cool, I like them really. But I also think that the Seaside-Magritte-GemStone-Nginx stack is also cool.
Amber, Seaside, Voyage, Mongo
And you guess what? I want and push daily business in Pharo.
Please do, you have my full support. However, what does that have to do with either SqueakSource3 or SmalltalkHub?
It has to do with having one good infrastructure and I was thinking ok if tobias would help in SmalltalkHub then SmalltalkHub would be better (I'm not talking about the website - but the software stack).
The tools I have built or collaborated with run in Pharo, so what is the deal?
Split of energy. If we have two guys working on the same forge then this is better than two guys working on two different forges.
I want smart guys like you, camillo, guilermo, ben, nicolas, igor, esteban and many more to be able to decide if they want to get a cool job with Pharo.
We are all able to decide whether we want to have a cool job with Pharo.
:) Only if there are jobs!
But please don't judge me that my image of Smalltalk is broader than just Pharo.
You think that mine is narrow minded :).
A bientôt, -Tobias
PS: On style. a) Is a rant a proper reaction to an announcement?
It was not a rant.
Isn't that like criticizing alpha software using a bug list? b) The first words of a text set its impression with the reader. The first words of the email accused me of Squeak-centricsim, as if it actually was something to be accused of.
You see I'm not in the squeak mailing-list so I do not see how I could give feedback as a user of SqueakSource3* without being in the squeakmaili
c) The last words of a text stay in mind. The last words of the email are selective in people and Smalltalk dialect.
Sure you know more than me. you know of course that the last engineer that quitted my team is a VW engineer. You also know that I suggested to some students doing pharo to apply to the recent VW job offers. You know so much about me that you can judge as being so narrow minded.
They make you _sound_ like you don't want not as smart guys on Pharo and, more importantly, you don't want people on any other Smalltalk than Pharo.
Build a sexy one (but for real) and I will use it instead of burning my energy building one.
This is unbecoming for a president of an organization that represents european users of _all_ Smalltalk dialects. Do you?
Tobias when you will have 2% of what I did for our community, I will take your insults seriously. Now I just think that you are going off-road.
-- Nicolas Petton http://www.nicolas-petton.fr
Hi Nico Am 01.07.2013 um 09:47 schrieb Nicolas Petton <petton.nicolas@gmail.com>:
Thanks Tobias for the update!
This version looks good, and I think moving to bootstrap was a good move :)
About the competition, I don't mind it. About working on SmalltalkHub with me, I sure would be glad, but I also completely understand your point. One thing we could do though is maybe share experience (feel free to email me) and discuss about both platforms? It can always be positive.
Yes, this seems a good point. Best -Tobias
Hi Tobias, On 28 Jun 2013, at 23:55, Tobias Pape <Das.Linux@gmx.de> wrote:
Dear fellow Smalltalkers
For me to test new features of SqueakSource3 and for you to have a look on new features and fixed bugs, I have created
which is the most recent, say alpha, deployment of SqueakSource3. It contains features that are not yet deployed at other ss3 sites, including the gemstone one. I cannot make any guaranty that code commited to the canary will survive forever; it is a play toy, so go play with it :)
Attached a teaser image.
Best -Tobias
<BrowsingSS3Canary.PNG>
Looks quite nice ! And although it is not necessarily efficient to have multiple efforts doing the same thing, some form of competition or alternative implementation is not bad. Cooperation on common goals is of course better still. Sven -- Sven Van Caekenberghe Proudly supporting Pharo http://pharo.org http://association.pharo.org http://consortium.pharo.org
participants (4)
-
Nicolas Petton -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tobias Pape