Good evening Roy. One thing that always amazes me a lot is that so many experienced solution providers (ie. people who develop solutions either to be sold as OTSCS or embedded as a more or less autonomous part of a bigger system) mind about if something is "mainstream" or something else. For several reasons extensively discussed in this forum, smalltalk didn't "hit the market" like java did. It has nothing to do regarding to smalltalk qualities or lack of them. It has to do with good marketing vs. bad marketing, shorter learning curve for things like java and the fact that java was more apt to be used in personal computers of the 1990ies. Besides that, large part of smalltalk community at that time had the "king inside their bellies" and that just made the technology less attractive to outsiders (look: 1990ies language wars). Smalltalk is a really nice technology supporting fast development of complex (and performative) solutions and demanding much smaller teams to do so. It has evident advantages in the fields of code testing, profiling, maintenance and reuse. Most common families of smalltalk like pharo/squeak/Cincom VW/ are cross platform (Windows, Linux, OS X, iOS). Important families of smalltalk are open source (pharo, squeak, gnu smalltalk and dedicated derivatives like OpenCobalt). Smalltak is far from dead. If you investigate you'll see that pharo (for instance) is supported by important universities (listed among 100 best universities in world). In recent years we have witnessed amazing things in smalltalk world. For reasons that can be summarized as immature product adoption in the 1990ies and ugly commercial practices by suppliers, smalltalk is not as popular as java or python. IMHO time will correct this situation. Now, if you want to deploy solutions you have no reason to fear smalltalk except by the fact that it's highly addictive: you start producing and do it fast and clean and just don't want to stop... but, like any d-dealer would say: "don't trust me, you just have to try it... just once... and look: first time is for free !!!" Ok, enough kidding: if you want to deploy solutions you'll see that for the same investment (time & material resources) you do more with smalltalk. You'll loose much less time debugging things, documenting things, figuring out what other people did before... you'll spend much less money in debuggers, profilers, testers, etc... You'll see that reusing and integrating things is just pleasant. And you'll be amazed by performance. That are my 2¢ CdAB

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)

As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers, Toon

Very well written, Toon! And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back. You have been warned. Sven

Very well written, Toon!

Thanks!

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back.

To say it in the words of people more famous than me: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" -- Alan Perlis For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing. cheers, Toon

Le 05/05/11 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know it and get it, you will never want to go back

+1 Yes, it's true. I discovered Smalltalk since six month and I'm digitally addicted ;-) Before, I thought that Smalltalk was a dinosaur but I was wrong. There are many projects, the community is really cool and the language is very impressive. Olivier www.auverlot.fr

Hi While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET. To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem. My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer. A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language. BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still... Cheers Carlo On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote: That is a superb response, Toon! I could not agree more. Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-) Johan On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)

As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers, Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:

...

Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.

I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy

Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!

Le 5 mai 2011 à 20:09, Toon Verwaest <toon.verwaest@gmail.com> a écrit :

I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on changing this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all levels with other languages, so that we can use their libraries rather than having to rewrite them.

I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;)

Whaooo ! Smalltalk as an universal syntax too access all the libraries. What a great perspective :-)

On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote:

...

Hi

While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.

To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.

My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn from them to make you a better software engineer. A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.

BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still... Cheers Carlo

On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:

That is a superb response, Toon! I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

...

Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)

As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers, Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:

...

Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it.

I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy

Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!