Dear Tudor, I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on defending the unwanted truth. You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons. My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences. If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an attitude. Tudor Girba-2 wrote

Hi Frank,

Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time).

The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do not want to hear any bitter facts any more.

Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary

No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything alike. I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena.

remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages.

I will and I always do but only when justified.

Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people.

Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead. Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people, whose boss I was, preferred this attitude.

Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for guidelines.

Very simple and I wrote this very clearly: I loaded the code and tried to "do it" the code in the Playground window. There was nothing more done and therefore there are no steps to explain.

Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that area, or any other area you choose to.

That's rediculous! You ask somebody else to document already written code. Pardon, but that's an extremely bad rethorical joke! Documentation and comments must be written BEFORE any code is written and must be ADJUSTED when the code is changed and finally when it seems to be finished - from the developer's point of view. If somebody seriously asks me - as an external - to document and comment already finished and totally undocumented code of somebody I do not even know, all I can think of is this old saying: "Oh Lord, forgive them as they do not know what they are speaking about". Hopefully, you don't mean this seriously, do you? BTW: If somebody uses the word "issue" where actually "problem" or "fault" or "mistake" would be correct, I see a sign of PC and successful brainwash. Missing documentation and IN-CODE comments are never an "issue" but always a "problem" and a always a great "mistake". -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960706.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Am 13.08.17 um 18:18 schrieb Frank-B:

Dear Tudor,

I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on defending the unwanted truth.

You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons.

My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences.

If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an attitude.

Tudor Girba-2 wrote

...

Hi Frank,

Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do not want to hear any bitter facts any more.

...

Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything alike.

I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena. IMO that is not special to the Squeak/Pharo community. When you look at sourceforge or github you will find a lot abandoned, incomplete or undocumented projects. Maybe it's more prominent here because this community is orders of magnitude smaller than others. When you google for a solution you typically find a bunch of hits for mainstream languages. So you can choose between several alternatives and thus have a high possibility to find something working for you, especially when big companies like Google are involved.

Regards Andreas

Hi Frank, I'd guess you anticipated this astute comment as well: What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented, functioning, and documented PharoJS? Maybe offer that amount to the projects devs and see if they are willing to develop the system you want to use. Its hard to eat on internet forum complaints alone. Good luck getting it sorted out Paul Frank-B wrote

Andreas,

you are most likely right, although I do not really qualify as a judge, because I have little experience with the code on these platforms. But this has always been my impression, too.

On the other hand, I am sure that the average Smalltakers stands way above the average developer when it comes to intelligence, programming skills and a lot of other factors. This is another reason why so many developers don't really understand "o-o" and are mostly unable to abstract things and, as a consequence from this, are not really able to use Smalltalk "properly".

On the negative side is that most Smalltalkers work rather as "lonesome wolfs" and, at best, in very small teams and very very few work on standard products meant to be used by a large or very large number of end-users. That has mostly been my goal over the last 20 years.

Still, all of this is no excuse for violating the very first developer's commandment: "Thou shall document thy code"

Mit herzlichen Grüßen Frank

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960720.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hi frank I think that you are slowly but steadily destroying your aura in this mailing-list, so be careful. I say that to help you. Filter are easy to set. We are all concerned that some of the solutions are not at the level where they should be. I'm sure that Noury like us all would love to have an engineer fully paid and working fully on PharoJS. Now you should consider that people in this community are - building nice libraries (just look at the Pharo success stories - we did not invent them) - sharing their code and valuing it - are concerned by documentation, speed, and robustness. You see take Zinc, NeoJSON, NeoCSV.... they are all HIGH quality, with nearly instant support from sven, with EXCELLENT documentation, FAST and continuously maintained. And for FREE. So of course not all the solutions in Pharo are like that. But we are trying. Now I do not know if you are the frank from lesser software I met in the past but if you do you may ask yourself what would be state of Pharo if you would have participated and shared. So far I never saw anything good or bad coming from this frank. And I was always asking myself if we would all work on closed code then a great system like Pharo would not exist. But we do share and we will continue to improve Pharo with or without you (remember U2 :)). Now if you want to join you are welcome. I can understand your frustration now the difference between you and me is that I decided not to be frustrated anymore and help building a better system. Stef Stef On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> wrote:

Paul,

...

What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented, functioning, and documented PharoJS?

Pardon, but don't you notice yourself how absurd this question is?

If not - and I am afraid you don't, I tell you why: - there is NOWHERE any proper listing of what this mysterious piece of software does (the slides don't tell anything) - before giving a quote, I would have to anylyse the architectural approach - and compare it with alternatives - no info available (read the docs on Orca and you know hwat I mean) - and see who delivers under which conditions - and how well things are documented.

Be assured, that I am well prepared to pay accordingly for a proper product that I can use, provided that I make the decition to delegate such essential work to some outsider.

This technical subject is a CORE feature of almost all of my future products, plans, ideas etc and it is therefore vital to choose the best and most fitting system. If there is no alternative, I would - in case of need - develop it rather myself than depend on an (assumed for the moment) instable and amateurish library.

Frank

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960738.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Am 13.08.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de>:

Stephane,

thank you for your open words.

1) No I am NOT Frank Lesser and I will communicate this even clearer in a personal email to you.

2) I had tried to make very clear that I see the Pharo project very positive and my critics as being (at least intended) constructive.

3) I never care about my reputation. I only care about truth, facts and a sincere appearance. Few people appreciate this attitude and I do not value the others all too high or seriously. Unfortunately, we all have to live in these timees of universal lies, deception and fraud. You probably know the good German word "Lügenpresse" and my version is: "the current Zeitgeist equals Lügenpresse".

"Lügenpresse" is not a good german word. It is a propaganda attempt by nationalists and used elsewhere by equally narrow minded people. Norbert

4) I have some good, solid and unusual ideas how I could improve the Pharo project considerably but for several reasons it is much to early to discuss this. It will take another 2-3 years and I will definitely come back when the time has come on my side.

5) As a contributor in the general Pharo sense I am currently neither capable (working 85-100 hours a week on my projects) nor eligible and the latter reason is not simple to explain, so I leave it at that for now.

Frank

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960770.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Hi, Truth has nothing to do with what our current exchange. In your email, you say "many of them [people] lack some important aspects to be called professionals.” You do not know these people, you do not know their motivations, constraints and goals. This means you are in no position to pass a judgement on these people, and as a consequence your remark can easily be regarded as offensive. Please also do not conflate this discussion in the political correctness debate. It only has to do with common sense. As I mentioned, PharoJS is an external project. It is not Pharo and its state has no relation to Pharo at present time. We are still very happy that it exists though and that it is still being developed. If you do not want to consider working on or with it is perfectly fine and I was not trying to imply otherwise. However, please do keep in mind that you are on the mailing list pertaining the development of Pharo. If you are interested in Pharo form a user perspective, please refer to the dedicated mailing list: pharo-users@lists.pharo.org. Concerning Pharo, we do actually place a significant focus on creating documentation on several fronts. For example, there are books written, and others currently being written. We also have projects on making the tools more welcoming for displaying documentation closer to the code. And we do very much welcome improvements to comments inside the image. There actually are several people that contributed mostly comments and documentation in the image and that was a significant contribution. So, given that it was possible in other cases, the suggestion to contribute documentation is not at all out of place. This being said, we do welcome you and I am happy you had a successful career. At the same time, I do happen to believe that form has a deep effect on people. We want this space to be kind, and I kindly ask you to respect that and to pay attention to the used language especially given that email is such a limited medium and that most people are not native English speakers. Cheers, Doru

On Aug 13, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software@web.de> wrote:

Dear Tudor,

I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on defending the unwanted truth.

You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons.

My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences.

If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an attitude.

Tudor Girba-2 wrote

...

Hi Frank,

Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time).

The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do not want to hear any bitter facts any more.

...

Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary

No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything alike.

I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena.

...

remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages.

I will and I always do but only when justified.

...

Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people.

Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead. Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people, whose boss I was, preferred this attitude.

...

Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for guidelines.

Very simple and I wrote this very clearly: I loaded the code and tried to "do it" the code in the Playground window. There was nothing more done and therefore there are no steps to explain.

...

Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that area, or any other area you choose to.

That's rediculous! You ask somebody else to document already written code. Pardon, but that's an extremely bad rethorical joke!

Documentation and comments must be written BEFORE any code is written and must be ADJUSTED when the code is changed and finally when it seems to be finished - from the developer's point of view.

If somebody seriously asks me - as an external - to document and comment already finished and totally undocumented code of somebody I do not even know, all I can think of is this old saying: "Oh Lord, forgive them as they do not know what they are speaking about".

Hopefully, you don't mean this seriously, do you?

BTW: If somebody uses the word "issue" where actually "problem" or "fault" or "mistake" would be correct, I see a sign of PC and successful brainwash.

Missing documentation and IN-CODE comments are never an "issue" but always a "problem" and a always a great "mistake".

-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960706.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening."

Stephane, all available information is in these two postings further up here: 13 Aug, 2017; 6:18pm versus the end 13 Aug, 2017; 6:38pm Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960742.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.