Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: out of memory - cog on windows
Hi, On 18 May 2011, at 16:30, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
Is there a possibility to have any sort of answer on this topic?
It looks to me like this bug is critical given that it prevents us to work with images larger than some 200M.
IMHO it's a problem on the image side. Change the behavior of #lowSpaceWatcher to fix the problem.
How would you do it? :) And if it is an image problem, why does it only appear on Windows? Cheers, Doru
Levente
Cheers, Tudor
On 16 May 2011, at 11:06, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi Igor,
Thanks a lot for looking into this. For us (around Moose), this is a critical issue because we play with our models in memory and regularly have images of several hundred megabytes. While most of us work on Mac without a problem, some other people work on Windows and this is a bottleneck.
Unfortunately, I do not have enough know-how to dive into the VM, but I would be gladly help in any way I can.
Cheers, Doru
On 16 May 2011, at 10:50, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 10 May 2011 09:34, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am back with some more input on the matter. We played with it, and found that basically any image that goes beyond something like 200MB limit (or maybe it's the number of objects), will not open on Windows.
I would need some help on this. Has nobody else hit this wall, or is it that I am doing something wrong?
One scenario that we used to reproduce the problem looks like this: 1. Take a Moose image: http://hudson.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/a... 2. Run: 1 to: 3 do: [ :i | MooseScripts createModelForConfigurationOfMoose ] This will basically create some 850000 objects and will get the image to some 400+MB 3. Save and quit the image 4. Reopen it
A ready-made image with the result of this can be found here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18323746/Tmp/moose-case-study-windows-problem.zip
This works well on Mac, but on Windows when you reopen the image, you get the out of memory message.
Cheers, Doru
I using latest VMs built by cmake on windows, and everytime i run this image, it opens a 'Space is low' dialog and then image not reacting on anything. VM not crashing however and responds to windows events.. But because UI process is broken an image simply not reacts to anything.
I think that the problem is that this dialog are shown at early image startup time, before everything is properly initialized, and because of that UI stalls somewhere.
Next things which i tried is to increase a virtual memory limit in sqWin32Alloc.h
#ifndef MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY #define MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 512*1024*1024 #endif
first i raised it to 768 Mbytes.. same behavior. then i raised it to 1Gb and again same behavior..
So, either this constant is overridden somewhere or it actually doesn't affecting the low-space detection mechanism as i would expect. Any suggestions?
I will continue looking , what happens on VM side, but in addition to that, i think we should do something on image side as well: - a low space watcher should not pop up before passing image startup, because if preempted process is UI process (and in 99.99% cases it is), then it means that low space watcher blocks UI process and as a consequence, your image stops handling events.
Also, i thinking about different approach for signaling a low space condition. Instead of signaling a low space semaphore, what VM could do is to fail an allocation primitive and set the error code to "low memory warning" then a primitive failure code could actually throw an exception, which then could be handled as usual... so you could write a code, like:
[ self allocateSomethingReallyHuge ] on: LowMemoryWarning do: [:err | self shouldWeReallyCare ifFalse: [ self tellVMThatItsOk. err resume ] ifTrue: [ err pass ] ]
Because by preempting a currently active process, which "possibly" causing a memory problems is not a solution, as you can see, if it happens during startup phase, then you it just stucks and image hangs. But if we could use exceptions, we could just ignore this warning (or do something else) during image startup, instead of blocking UI process , showing a useless popup message and letting image hang like that.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, you will end up with a messy haircut."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Obvious things are difficult to teach."
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 18 May 2011, at 16:30, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
Is there a possibility to have any sort of answer on this topic?
It looks to me like this bug is critical given that it prevents us to work with images larger than some 200M.
IMHO it's a problem on the image side. Change the behavior of #lowSpaceWatcher to fix the problem.
How would you do it? :)
According to Igor's mail, the UI process is suspended by the low space watcher, which prevents you from seeing the cause of the problem. So, for example you could wake up the UI process if that was suspended by the VM and/or log some info about the situation. This won't save your image, but since it works on non-windows VMs, that's not a problem.
And if it is an image problem, why does it only appear on Windows?
Are you using the same VMs (interpreter/cog, version number matches, etc)? If you didn't try so far, then open the image with the latest interpreter VM on windows, it has some extra checks for allocations which is not implemented in Cog yet. Levente
Cheers, Doru
Levente
Cheers, Tudor
On 16 May 2011, at 11:06, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi Igor,
Thanks a lot for looking into this. For us (around Moose), this is a critical issue because we play with our models in memory and regularly have images of several hundred megabytes. While most of us work on Mac without a problem, some other people work on Windows and this is a bottleneck.
Unfortunately, I do not have enough know-how to dive into the VM, but I would be gladly help in any way I can.
Cheers, Doru
On 16 May 2011, at 10:50, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 10 May 2011 09:34, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am back with some more input on the matter. We played with it, and found that basically any image that goes beyond something like 200MB limit (or maybe it's the number of objects), will not open on Windows.
I would need some help on this. Has nobody else hit this wall, or is it that I am doing something wrong?
One scenario that we used to reproduce the problem looks like this: 1. Take a Moose image: http://hudson.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/a... 2. Run: 1 to: 3 do: [ :i | MooseScripts createModelForConfigurationOfMoose ] This will basically create some 850000 objects and will get the image to some 400+MB 3. Save and quit the image 4. Reopen it
A ready-made image with the result of this can be found here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18323746/Tmp/moose-case-study-windows-problem.zip
This works well on Mac, but on Windows when you reopen the image, you get the out of memory message.
Cheers, Doru
I using latest VMs built by cmake on windows, and everytime i run this image, it opens a 'Space is low' dialog and then image not reacting on anything. VM not crashing however and responds to windows events.. But because UI process is broken an image simply not reacts to anything.
I think that the problem is that this dialog are shown at early image startup time, before everything is properly initialized, and because of that UI stalls somewhere.
Next things which i tried is to increase a virtual memory limit in sqWin32Alloc.h
#ifndef MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY #define MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 512*1024*1024 #endif
first i raised it to 768 Mbytes.. same behavior. then i raised it to 1Gb and again same behavior..
So, either this constant is overridden somewhere or it actually doesn't affecting the low-space detection mechanism as i would expect. Any suggestions?
I will continue looking , what happens on VM side, but in addition to that, i think we should do something on image side as well: - a low space watcher should not pop up before passing image startup, because if preempted process is UI process (and in 99.99% cases it is), then it means that low space watcher blocks UI process and as a consequence, your image stops handling events.
Also, i thinking about different approach for signaling a low space condition. Instead of signaling a low space semaphore, what VM could do is to fail an allocation primitive and set the error code to "low memory warning" then a primitive failure code could actually throw an exception, which then could be handled as usual... so you could write a code, like:
[ self allocateSomethingReallyHuge ] on: LowMemoryWarning do: [:err | self shouldWeReallyCare ifFalse: [ self tellVMThatItsOk. err resume ] ifTrue: [ err pass ] ]
Because by preempting a currently active process, which "possibly" causing a memory problems is not a solution, as you can see, if it happens during startup phase, then you it just stucks and image hangs. But if we could use exceptions, we could just ignore this warning (or do something else) during image startup, instead of blocking UI process , showing a useless popup message and letting image hang like that.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, you will end up with a messy haircut."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Obvious things are difficult to teach."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."
On 18 May 2011 16:51, Levente Uzonyi <leves@elte.hu> wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 18 May 2011, at 16:30, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
Is there a possibility to have any sort of answer on this topic?
It looks to me like this bug is critical given that it prevents us to work with images larger than some 200M.
IMHO it's a problem on the image side. Change the behavior of #lowSpaceWatcher to fix the problem.
How would you do it? :)
According to Igor's mail, the UI process is suspended by the low space watcher, which prevents you from seeing the cause of the problem. So, for example you could wake up the UI process if that was suspended by the VM and/or log some info about the situation. This won't save your image, but since it works on non-windows VMs, that's not a problem.
Yes. I don't want to change the low-space signaling locgic in VM, since it works not only just for Windows but for other systems. It could be possible that Windows-specific code either reports wrong memory limit (which triggers low-space logic sooner than expected, even when you set the hardcoded virtual memory allocation to be much higher), or actually there is not enough address space on windows, and requesting to allocate contiguous 1Gb address space fails, and actually VM forced to use smaller address space for object memory. But then i would expect another failure, because a reasonably big image (>512Mb) could even not fit into memory during image startup, because there's not enough address space.
And if it is an image problem, why does it only appear on Windows?
Are you using the same VMs (interpreter/cog, version number matches, etc)? If you didn't try so far, then open the image with the latest interpreter VM on windows, it has some extra checks for allocations which is not implemented in Cog yet.
Levente
Cheers, Doru
Levente
Cheers, Tudor
On 16 May 2011, at 11:06, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi Igor,
Thanks a lot for looking into this. For us (around Moose), this is a critical issue because we play with our models in memory and regularly have images of several hundred megabytes. While most of us work on Mac without a problem, some other people work on Windows and this is a bottleneck.
Unfortunately, I do not have enough know-how to dive into the VM, but I would be gladly help in any way I can.
Cheers, Doru
On 16 May 2011, at 10:50, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 10 May 2011 09:34, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am back with some more input on the matter. We played with it, and found that basically any image that goes beyond something like 200MB limit (or maybe it's the number of objects), will not open on Windows.
I would need some help on this. Has nobody else hit this wall, or is it that I am doing something wrong?
One scenario that we used to reproduce the problem looks like this: 1. Take a Moose image:
http://hudson.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/a... 2. Run: 1 to: 3 do: [ :i | MooseScripts createModelForConfigurationOfMoose ] This will basically create some 850000 objects and will get the image to some 400+MB 3. Save and quit the image 4. Reopen it
A ready-made image with the result of this can be found here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18323746/Tmp/moose-case-study-windows-problem.zip
This works well on Mac, but on Windows when you reopen the image, you get the out of memory message.
Cheers, Doru
I using latest VMs built by cmake on windows, and everytime i run this image, it opens a 'Space is low' dialog and then image not reacting on anything. VM not crashing however and responds to windows events.. But because UI process is broken an image simply not reacts to anything.
I think that the problem is that this dialog are shown at early image startup time, before everything is properly initialized, and because of that UI stalls somewhere.
Next things which i tried is to increase a virtual memory limit in sqWin32Alloc.h
#ifndef MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY #define MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 512*1024*1024 #endif
first i raised it to 768 Mbytes.. same behavior. then i raised it to 1Gb and again same behavior..
So, either this constant is overridden somewhere or it actually doesn't affecting the low-space detection mechanism as i would expect. Any suggestions?
I will continue looking , what happens on VM side, but in addition to that, i think we should do something on image side as well: - a low space watcher should not pop up before passing image startup, because if preempted process is UI process (and in 99.99% cases it is), then it means that low space watcher blocks UI process and as a consequence, your image stops handling events.
Also, i thinking about different approach for signaling a low space condition. Instead of signaling a low space semaphore, what VM could do is to fail an allocation primitive and set the error code to "low memory warning" then a primitive failure code could actually throw an exception, which then could be handled as usual... so you could write a code, like:
[ self allocateSomethingReallyHuge ] on: LowMemoryWarning do: [:err | self shouldWeReallyCare ifFalse: [ self tellVMThatItsOk. err resume ] ifTrue: [ err pass ] ]
Because by preempting a currently active process, which "possibly" causing a memory problems is not a solution, as you can see, if it happens during startup phase, then you it just stucks and image hangs. But if we could use exceptions, we could just ignore this warning (or do something else) during image startup, instead of blocking UI process , showing a useless popup message and letting image hang like that.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, you will end up with a messy haircut."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Obvious things are difficult to teach."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Hi, On 18 May 2011, at 16:51, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 18 May 2011, at 16:30, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
Is there a possibility to have any sort of answer on this topic?
It looks to me like this bug is critical given that it prevents us to work with images larger than some 200M.
IMHO it's a problem on the image side. Change the behavior of #lowSpaceWatcher to fix the problem.
How would you do it? :)
According to Igor's mail, the UI process is suspended by the low space watcher, which prevents you from seeing the cause of the problem. So, for example you could wake up the UI process if that was suspended by the VM and/or log some info about the situation. This won't save your image, but since it works on non-windows VMs, that's not a problem.
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I do not know how to do that. Furthermore, it's not about one image. These images are produced automatically several times per day, and people want to be able to download them and play with the data inside. And again, having a 200M image cannot be so unusual. I tried in multiple situations to simply generate a large enough image and it won't open.
And if it is an image problem, why does it only appear on Windows?
Are you using the same VMs (interpreter/cog, version number matches, etc)? If you didn't try so far, then open the image with the latest interpreter VM on windows, it has some extra checks for allocations which is not implemented in Cog yet.
I tried with several versions of Cog including the latest ones (on both platforms) and I got the same result. I did not try with an interpreter VM because I only have Cog images around (based on Pharo 1.2) and they are not compatible. Cheers, Doru
Levente
Cheers, Doru
Levente
Cheers, Tudor
On 16 May 2011, at 11:06, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi Igor,
Thanks a lot for looking into this. For us (around Moose), this is a critical issue because we play with our models in memory and regularly have images of several hundred megabytes. While most of us work on Mac without a problem, some other people work on Windows and this is a bottleneck.
Unfortunately, I do not have enough know-how to dive into the VM, but I would be gladly help in any way I can.
Cheers, Doru
On 16 May 2011, at 10:50, Igor Stasenko wrote:
On 10 May 2011 09:34, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am back with some more input on the matter. We played with it, and found that basically any image that goes beyond something like 200MB limit (or maybe it's the number of objects), will not open on Windows.
I would need some help on this. Has nobody else hit this wall, or is it that I am doing something wrong?
One scenario that we used to reproduce the problem looks like this: 1. Take a Moose image: http://hudson.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/a... 2. Run: 1 to: 3 do: [ :i | MooseScripts createModelForConfigurationOfMoose ] This will basically create some 850000 objects and will get the image to some 400+MB 3. Save and quit the image 4. Reopen it
A ready-made image with the result of this can be found here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18323746/Tmp/moose-case-study-windows-problem.zip
This works well on Mac, but on Windows when you reopen the image, you get the out of memory message.
Cheers, Doru
I using latest VMs built by cmake on windows, and everytime i run this image, it opens a 'Space is low' dialog and then image not reacting on anything. VM not crashing however and responds to windows events.. But because UI process is broken an image simply not reacts to anything.
I think that the problem is that this dialog are shown at early image startup time, before everything is properly initialized, and because of that UI stalls somewhere.
Next things which i tried is to increase a virtual memory limit in sqWin32Alloc.h
#ifndef MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY #define MAX_VIRTUAL_MEMORY 512*1024*1024 #endif
first i raised it to 768 Mbytes.. same behavior. then i raised it to 1Gb and again same behavior..
So, either this constant is overridden somewhere or it actually doesn't affecting the low-space detection mechanism as i would expect. Any suggestions?
I will continue looking , what happens on VM side, but in addition to that, i think we should do something on image side as well: - a low space watcher should not pop up before passing image startup, because if preempted process is UI process (and in 99.99% cases it is), then it means that low space watcher blocks UI process and as a consequence, your image stops handling events.
Also, i thinking about different approach for signaling a low space condition. Instead of signaling a low space semaphore, what VM could do is to fail an allocation primitive and set the error code to "low memory warning" then a primitive failure code could actually throw an exception, which then could be handled as usual... so you could write a code, like:
[ self allocateSomethingReallyHuge ] on: LowMemoryWarning do: [:err | self shouldWeReallyCare ifFalse: [ self tellVMThatItsOk. err resume ] ifTrue: [ err pass ] ]
Because by preempting a currently active process, which "possibly" causing a memory problems is not a solution, as you can see, if it happens during startup phase, then you it just stucks and image hangs. But if we could use exceptions, we could just ignore this warning (or do something else) during image startup, instead of blocking UI process , showing a useless popup message and letting image hang like that.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair, you will end up with a messy haircut."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Obvious things are difficult to teach."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing should have the right to be different."
On 18 May 2011 17:08, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
On 18 May 2011, at 16:51, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
On 18 May 2011, at 16:30, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
Hi,
Is there a possibility to have any sort of answer on this topic?
It looks to me like this bug is critical given that it prevents us to work with images larger than some 200M.
IMHO it's a problem on the image side. Change the behavior of #lowSpaceWatcher to fix the problem.
How would you do it? :)
According to Igor's mail, the UI process is suspended by the low space watcher, which prevents you from seeing the cause of the problem. So, for example you could wake up the UI process if that was suspended by the VM and/or log some info about the situation. This won't save your image, but since it works on non-windows VMs, that's not a problem.
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I do not know how to do that.
Furthermore, it's not about one image. These images are produced automatically several times per day, and people want to be able to download them and play with the data inside.
And again, having a 200M image cannot be so unusual. I tried in multiple situations to simply generate a large enough image and it won't open.
And if it is an image problem, why does it only appear on Windows?
Are you using the same VMs (interpreter/cog, version number matches, etc)? If you didn't try so far, then open the image with the latest interpreter VM on windows, it has some extra checks for allocations which is not implemented in Cog yet.
I tried with several versions of Cog including the latest ones (on both platforms) and I got the same result. I did not try with an interpreter VM because I only have Cog images around (based on Pharo 1.2) and they are not compatible.
@Eliot, can you comment or recommend something concerning this issue?
Cheers, Doru
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote: snip
I tried with several versions of Cog including the latest ones (on both platforms) and I got the same result. I did not try with an interpreter VM because I only have Cog images around (based on Pharo 1.2) and they are not compatible.
You can use this interpreter vm to open cog images: http://leves.web.elte.hu/squeak/SqueakVM-Win32-4.4.9-2358-non-official-bin.z... Levente snip
Hi, On 18 May 2011, at 18:07, Levente Uzonyi wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011, Tudor Girba wrote:
snip
I tried with several versions of Cog including the latest ones (on both platforms) and I got the same result. I did not try with an interpreter VM because I only have Cog images around (based on Pharo 1.2) and they are not compatible.
You can use this interpreter vm to open cog images: http://leves.web.elte.hu/squeak/SqueakVM-Win32-4.4.9-2358-non-official-bin.z...
I tried with this VM, but it crashes with the attached error. In any case, if someone wants to reproduce it, here is an image to play with: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18323746/Tmp/moose-case-study-windows-problem.zip Cheers, Doru
Levente
snip
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Being happy is a matter of choice."
participants (4)
-
Igor Stasenko -
Levente Uzonyi -
Tudor Girba -
Tudor Girba