Substitution of ' to " in TextEditor>>shiftEnclose
Hi, I am wondering if the upper part of TextEditor>>shiftEnclose: aKeyboardEvent "Insert or remove bracket characters around the current selection." | char left right startIndex stopIndex oldSelection which text | char := aKeyboardEvent keyCharacter. char = $9 ifTrue: [ char := $( ]. char = $, ifTrue: [ char := $< ]. char = $[ ifTrue: [ char := ${ ]. char = $' ifTrue: [ char := $" ]. is a bug or a feature. For german keyboards it causes that pressing the single Apostroph (which is reached via shift-#) is substituted to ". So enclosing a textblock and pressing ' leads to comments around the block, which is really annoying. I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns. Is there any reason, why this substitution takes place? Regards Max
2014-08-27 15:12 GMT+02:00 Maximilian Bareis <max.bareis@me.com>:
Hi,
I am wondering if the upper part of
*TextEditor>>shiftEnclose: aKeyboardEvent* * "Insert or remove bracket characters around the current selection."*
* | char left right startIndex stopIndex oldSelection which text |* * char := aKeyboardEvent keyCharacter.* * char = $9 ifTrue: [ char := $( ].* * char = $, ifTrue: [ char := $< ].* * char = $[ ifTrue: [ char := ${ ].* * char = $' ifTrue: [ char := $" ].*
is a bug or a feature. For german keyboards it causes that pressing the single Apostroph (which is reached via shift-#) is substituted to ". So enclosing a textblock and pressing ' leads to comments around the block, which is really annoying.
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
Is there any reason, why this substitution takes place?
Regards
Max
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard. And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436> and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646> Nicolai
is a bug or a feature. For german keyboards it causes that pressing the single Apostroph (which is reached via shift-#) is substituted to ". So enclosing a textblock and pressing ' leads to comments around the block, which is really annoying.
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
Is there any reason, why this substitution takes place?
Regards
Max
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard.
And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436> and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646>
Should the core team take action? Stef
Nicolai
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard.
And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436>; and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646>;
Should the core team take action?
Stef
For me, there is no urgency. I sent it to the mailing list, because I used the wrong words for the issue search and didn't find any issue. As it is already on the issue list and I have a workaround (replacing the method in my download bash file for zeroconf) it is ok. Max -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Substitution-of-to-in-TextEditor-shiftEnclose-tp477505... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I encountered this in Squeak too, because French keyboard is not better than german one :( Nicolas Cellier uploaded a new version of ST80 to project The Trunk: http://source.squeak.org/trunk/ST80-nice.136.mcz ==================== Summary ==================== Name: ST80-nice.136 Author: nice Time: 4 August 2011, 10:43:00.836 am UUID: 6f8b2f4c-8c8c-48a8-ba32- bb5b37d827d0 Ancestors: ST80-ul.135 #shiftEnclose: is hardcoding the keyboard layout, which is not compatible with foreign keyboards and modern VM, and prevents correct enclosing to work. This version rather use a normal #enclose: A (ParagraphEditor initialize) postscrip is necessary. =============== Diff against ST80-ul.135 =============== 2014-08-27 17:11 GMT+02:00 Max Bareis <max.bareis@me.com>:
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard.
And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436>; and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646>;
Should the core team take action?
Stef
For me, there is no urgency. I sent it to the mailing list, because I used the wrong words for the issue search and didn't find any issue. As it is already on the issue list and I have a workaround (replacing the method in my download bash file for zeroconf) it is ok.
Max
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Substitution-of-to-in-TextEditor-shiftEnclose-tp477505... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Of course, similar code and change in Morphic, see bottom of change report http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160926.ht... and follow links. This came after http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160923.ht... But then, there were some complaints of English keyboard users... http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160968.ht... and then later http://forum.world.st/Re-squeak-dev-shift-enclose-broken-in-trunk-td4543316.... I don't remember how the issue ended, or even if it properly ended... (That's where an issue tracker should shine, but Squeak one is not really used/maintained). 2014-08-27 17:27 GMT+02:00 Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com>:
I encountered this in Squeak too, because French keyboard is not better than german one :(
Nicolas Cellier uploaded a new version of ST80 to project The Trunk: http://source.squeak.org/trunk/ST80-nice.136.mcz
==================== Summary ====================
Name: ST80-nice.136 Author: nice Time: 4 August 2011, 10:43:00.836 am UUID: 6f8b2f4c-8c8c-48a8-ba32- bb5b37d827d0 Ancestors: ST80-ul.135
#shiftEnclose: is hardcoding the keyboard layout, which is not compatible with foreign keyboards and modern VM, and prevents correct enclosing to work.
This version rather use a normal #enclose: A (ParagraphEditor initialize) postscrip is necessary.
=============== Diff against ST80-ul.135 ===============
2014-08-27 17:11 GMT+02:00 Max Bareis <max.bareis@me.com>:
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard.
And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436>; and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646>;
Should the core team take action?
Stef
For me, there is no urgency. I sent it to the mailing list, because I used the wrong words for the issue search and didn't find any issue. As it is already on the issue list and I have a workaround (replacing the method in my download bash file for zeroconf) it is ok.
Max
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Substitution-of-to-in-TextEditor-shiftEnclose-tp477505... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 27 Aug 2014, at 9:19 , Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course, similar code and change in Morphic, see bottom of change report http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160926.ht... and follow links.
This came after http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160923.ht...
But then, there were some complaints of English keyboard users... http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160968.ht...
and then later http://forum.world.st/Re-squeak-dev-shift-enclose-broken-in-trunk-td4543316....
I don't remember how the issue ended, or even if it properly ended... (That's where an issue tracker should shine, but Squeak one is not really used/maintained).
Thatâs not really a bug in the VM or anything, but a lossy translation from Ctrl -> Shift + Alt in the image⦠Only the modifier keys are ⦠modified, while the key character is left unchanged. Thus, when one uses Ctrl + â (on those layouts where " is its shifted value), the = â ifTrue: [:= "] part is a hack around that, hardcoded to a single layout. When using Shift + â , the VM return the keyValue of ", and no translation is needed. My 2C: Remove the workarounds, as well as the option of translating Ctrl -> Shift + Alt. In order for it to work *properly* without external hacks, youâd need to implement all keyboard layouts image side, and translate the key character as well as modifier keys. The alternative would be to change the VM to include the properly shifted character in each keyboard event, which seems a bit excessive for supporting such a feature. (If such support functions even exist) Cheers, Henry
On 28 Aug 2014, at 10:58 , Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen@veloxit.no> wrote:
On 27 Aug 2014, at 9:19 , Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course, similar code and change in Morphic, see bottom of change report http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160926.ht... and follow links.
This came after http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160923.ht...
But then, there were some complaints of English keyboard users... http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2011-August/160968.ht...
and then later http://forum.world.st/Re-squeak-dev-shift-enclose-broken-in-trunk-td4543316....
I don't remember how the issue ended, or even if it properly ended... (That's where an issue tracker should shine, but Squeak one is not really used/maintained).
Thatâs not really a bug in the VM or anything, but a lossy translation from Ctrl -> Shift + Alt in the image⦠Only the modifier keys are ⦠modified, while the key character is left unchanged. Thus, when one uses Ctrl + â (on those layouts where " is its shifted value), the = â ifTrue: [:= "] part is a hack around that, hardcoded to a single layout. When using Shift + â , the VM return the keyValue of ", and no translation is needed.
My 2C: Remove the workarounds, as well as the option of translating Ctrl -> Shift + Alt. In order for it to work *properly* without external hacks, youâd need to implement all keyboard layouts image side, and translate the key character as well as modifier keys. The alternative would be to change the VM to include the properly shifted character in each keyboard event, which seems a bit excessive for supporting such a feature. (If such support functions even exist)
Cheers, Henry
AFAICT, Pharo already removed this option, so removing shiftEnclose: shouldnât have any nasty lingering side-effects. Itâs a relatively small change as well, I attached the .cs to the existing issue: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/4646/shiftEnclose-shall-not-hardcode-the-k... Comments like these (from TextEditor >> initializeBasicShiftCmdKeyShortcuts) just make me wince: "Note: Command key overrides shift key, so, for example, cmd-shift-9 produces $9 not $(" '9[,''' do: [ :char | cmdMap at: (char asciiValue + 1) put: #shiftEnclose: ]. "({< and double-quote" "Note: Must use cmd-9 or ctrl-9 to get '()' since cmd-shift-9 is a Mac FKey command.» Why would you ever need use command + shift instead of just shift to make those characters? I guess Cmd -> Ctrl -> Shift + Alt might be an option in Squeak⦠but why not just use shift if thatâs what you wanted in the first place? (Full disclosure: on my keyboard layout, '(' is on 8) Cheers, Henry
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
I encountered this in Squeak too, because French keyboard is not better than german one :(
Nicolas Cellier uploaded a new version of ST80 to project The Trunk: http://source.squeak.org/trunk/ST80-nice.136.mcz
==================== Summary ====================
Name: ST80-nice.136 Author: nice Time: 4 August 2011, 10:43:00.836 am UUID: 6f8b2f4c-8c8c-48a8-ba32- bb5b37d827d0 Ancestors: ST80-ul.135
#shiftEnclose: is hardcoding the keyboard layout, which is not compatible with foreign keyboards and modern VM, and prevents correct enclosing to work.
+1. This is the issue that must be fixed. It must be understood properly (is the VM answering adequate information or not?).
This version rather use a normal #enclose: A (ParagraphEditor initialize) postscrip is necessary.
=============== Diff against ST80-ul.135 ===============
2014-08-27 17:11 GMT+02:00 Max Bareis <max.bareis@me.com>:
I am curious, because this substitution does not make any sense to me. The keyCharacter is always the "real" character ( $( instead of $9 ). Also it seems that this substitution reduces the keyboard to the en-Layout, therefore breaks the separation of concerns.
I hope this gets resolved, as it is really annoying with a german Keyboard.
And look at the issues: 11436 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11436>; and 4646 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?4646>;
Should the core team take action?
Stef
For me, there is no urgency. I sent it to the mailing list, because I used the wrong words for the issue search and didn't find any issue. As it is already on the issue list and I have a workaround (replacing the method in my download bash file for zeroconf) it is ok.
Max
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Substitution-of-to-in-TextEditor-shiftEnclose-tp477505... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
Hi Folks, (below) Quoting Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com>:
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
I encountered this in Squeak too, because French keyboard is not better than german one :(
Nicolas Cellier uploaded a new version of ST80 to project The Trunk: http://source.squeak.org/trunk/ST80-nice.136.mcz
==================== Summary ====================
Name: ST80-nice.136 Author: nice Time: 4 August 2011, 10:43:00.836 am UUID: 6f8b2f4c-8c8c-48a8-ba32- bb5b37d827d0 Ancestors: ST80-ul.135
#shiftEnclose: is hardcoding the keyboard layout, which is not compatible with foreign keyboards and modern VM, and prevents correct enclosing to work.
 +1.  This is the issue that must be fixed.  It must be understood properly (is the VM answering adequate information or not?). Â
The information provided by the VMs in keystroke events is not perfect, and it could be enhanced. I see 2 main problems (in what follows, $x denotes Character x, and [x] denotes the physical keyboard key labelled 'x'): Problem 1) On the mac, when control or command are pressed, for any keystroke the unshifted code is returned, even if shift is pressed. For instance, let's assume an US keyboard. So, [shift]+[,] generates $< and [shift]+[.] generates $>. If you run 'Sensor kbdTest' and press [shift]+[,] you correctly get $<, but if you press [control]+[shift]+[,] or [command]+[shift]+[,] you get $,. This is bad, because to detect [command]+[<] or [control]+[<] you need to write code that not only needs to know about the platform, but also about the keyboard layout, as in many layouts $< is not generated by doing [shift]+[,], but by some other combination. The same happens with most non-alphabetic keys, that usually differ in different keyboard layouts. Problem 2) There is a completely separated issue, and it happens both in Windows and Mac. Here, [ctrl] + [an alphabetic key] substracts 64 from the code. So, [ctrl]+[c] generates code 3. This is consistent with the traditional meaning of the ctrl key (in dumb terminals and DOS), but it makes impossible for the image to tell (for example) between [ctrl]+[Enter] and [ctrl]+[m]. The image might want to use these keystrokes for different things, so it would be much better not to substract 64 in the VM and let the image handle it. I know it could be done by handling key down and key up events, but this would also require code that is not only platform dependent but also needs to know the mapping between key codes and characters in each platform. I haven't tested on Linux or platforms other than Windows and Mac, but things like these could also happen. In general, [control], [command] and [alt/option] should not affect the character code of a keystroke, they should only set the appropriate flag so the image can decide what to do with them. The character code should be the same as if [control], [command] and [alt/option] were not pressed. This is completely different for [shift], as [shift] does indeed modify the character generated, as [shift]+[8] means $* in some keyboards and $( on others. If [shift]+[someKey] is pressed, the keystroke character code should be the same as the user would get elsewhere in the platform, irrespectively of [control], [command] and/or [alt/option] being pressed or not. Fixing these, and making the behavior consistent between platforms, would enable a few simplifications in the image. It would also enable the use of some keystroke combinations involving [command] and/or [control] that are problematic today.
best, Eliot
Thanks, Juan Vuletich
participants (8)
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Eliot Miranda -
Henrik Johansen -
J. Vuletich (mail lists) -
Max Bareis -
Maximilian Bareis
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Nicolai Hess -
Nicolas Cellier -
stepharo