Yes, Python documentation is really impressive, the best I know. May be we can go the other way, from HelpSystem to web. I've tried something like some months ago.ex: http://magaloma.seasidehosting.st/Collections-Streams. So we can have a documentation page like http://docs.python.org/py3k/ with: - collaborator book - web edition of Pharo By Example - HelpSystem books - API reference generated from comments in classes / methods (with the possibility to add comments like jQuery or PHP online docs.) All on one page, starting point to look for documentation, at http://docs.pharo-project.org Cheers, Laurent Laffont On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Michael Roberts <mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote:

Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book.

As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level.

at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness.

so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content.

Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing.

cheers, Mike

2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:

...

Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:

...

To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:

1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.

2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).

3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)

The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342

But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.

4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.

A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)

5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer

6. There are two types of help I see:

A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments

HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in

http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html

...

7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.

I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.

There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...

...

8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.

See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.

9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.

The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.

10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.

HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.

I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.

11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.

Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.

External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).

12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.

13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.

We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)

But - let's do it step by step. As I said:

- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot

Bye Torsten

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What would be good is to have a class comments for each of the class we see in HelpSystem openOn: SystemReference. This would be a countable progress. stef On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:32 PM, laurent laffont wrote:

Yes, Python documentation is really impressive, the best I know.

May be we can go the other way, from HelpSystem to web. I've tried something like some months ago.ex: http://magaloma.seasidehosting.st/Collections-Streams.

So we can have a documentation page like http://docs.python.org/py3k/ with: - collaborator book - web edition of Pharo By Example - HelpSystem books - API reference generated from comments in classes / methods (with the possibility to add comments like jQuery or PHP online docs.) All on one page, starting point to look for documentation, at http://docs.pharo-project.org

Cheers,

Laurent Laffont

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Michael Roberts <mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote: Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book.

As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level.

at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness.

so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content.

Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing.

cheers, Mike

2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:

...

Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:

...

To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:

1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.

2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).

3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)

The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342

But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.

4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.

A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)

5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer

6. There are two types of help I see:

A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments

HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in

http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html

7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.

I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.

There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...

8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.

See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.

9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.

The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.

10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.

HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.

I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.

11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.

Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.

External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).

12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.

13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.

We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)

But - let's do it step by step. As I said:

- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot

Bye Torsten

-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01

_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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