[Pharo-project] HelpSystem (was Documentation Team)
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev: 1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary. 2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help). 3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...) The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342 But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo. 4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases. A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...) 5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer 6. There are two types of help I see: A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html 7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task. I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak. There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this. http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p... 8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards. See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses. 9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy. The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser. 10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image. HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too. I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first. 11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards. Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date. External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki). 12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early. 13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms. We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it) But - let's do it step by step. As I said: - Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot Bye Torsten -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).
3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.
A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer
6. There are two types of help I see:
A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.
I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.
There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.
See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.
The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.
HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.
I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.
External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).
12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book. As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level. at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness. so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content. Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing. cheers, Mike 2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
 1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use   it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview.   I have clear goals how it should look like in the   next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
 2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual   information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with   the IRC example, the books and the API help).
 3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions   (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
  The last additions from Hannes already broke the code   in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time   http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
  But please dont commit when it is only working in   Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
 4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared   to add other types in future releases.
  A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring   to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType"   in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types   (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
 5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also   serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial   app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your   end user/customer
 6. There are two types of help I see:
   A. SystemHelp:    Help books/Tutorials/Manuals    B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
  HelpSystem is supporting both.   I already wrote about the differences and details in
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
 7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing   in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper   to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the   current plain text.   If people want to contribute they should start right with this   task.
  I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo,   dont know about the state in Squeak.
  There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available   open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
 8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...)   to use for describing the contents.   My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since   this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.)   and  even when there are different syntax styles you can provides   builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes   afterwards.
  See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
 9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then   the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar   to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly   map book structures to the class hierarchy.
  The intention was to be able to create, store and manage   these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools.   You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
 10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute   right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the   standard image.
  HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual   sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this   or make it too complicated since this is what people are   used too.
  I dont see more documented classes by introducing a   special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about   - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
 11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources   (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing   could be done right from within the image.   Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
  Look at my example books: I can view and change them   right from the image and make them available to other images   using Metacello/Squeaksource.   Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep   the system and docu in sync and up to date.
  External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see   the Squeak Swiki).
 12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and   Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
 13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we   can generate static files or serve them with Seaside.   But I have no need for that right now, especially since   this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
 - Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate  would really help moving this forward  (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle)  - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Yes, Python documentation is really impressive, the best I know. May be we can go the other way, from HelpSystem to web. I've tried something like some months ago.ex: http://magaloma.seasidehosting.st/Collections-Streams. So we can have a documentation page like http://docs.python.org/py3k/ with: - collaborator book - web edition of Pharo By Example - HelpSystem books - API reference generated from comments in classes / methods (with the possibility to add comments like jQuery or PHP online docs.) All on one page, starting point to look for documentation, at http://docs.pharo-project.org Cheers, Laurent Laffont On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Michael Roberts <mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote:
Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book.
As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level.
at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness.
so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content.
Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing.
cheers, Mike
2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).
3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.
A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer
6. There are two types of help I see:
A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.
I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.
There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.
See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.
The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.
HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.
I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.
External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).
12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
yes I think that is a nice idea. we would need to see how it fitted in with http://pharo-project.org/documentation as it is currently, and if we load cms-box with all content or something else for dynamically generated stuff like your seaside example (or -> static html). cheers, Mike 2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
Yes, Python documentation is really impressive, the best I know. May be we can go the other way, from HelpSystem to web. I've tried something like some months ago.ex: http://magaloma.seasidehosting.st/Collections-Streams. So we can have a documentation page like http://docs.python.org/py3k/ with: - collaborator book - web edition of Pharo By Example - HelpSystem books - API reference generated from comments in classes / methods (with the possibility to add comments like  jQuery or PHP online docs.) All on one page, starting point to look for documentation, at http://docs.pharo-project.org Cheers, Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Michael Roberts <mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote:
Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. Â The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. Â So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book.
As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. Â I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level.
at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. Â We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness.
so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content.
Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing.
cheers, Mike
2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
 1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use   it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview.   I have clear goals how it should look like in the   next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
 2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual   information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with   the IRC example, the books and the API help).
 3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions   (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
  The last additions from Hannes already broke the code   in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time   http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
  But please dont commit when it is only working in   Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
 4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared   to add other types in future releases.
  A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring   to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType"   in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types   (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
 5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also   serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial   app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your   end user/customer
 6. There are two types of help I see:
   A. SystemHelp:    Help books/Tutorials/Manuals    B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
  HelpSystem is supporting both.   I already wrote about the differences and details in
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
 7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing   in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper   to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the   current plain text.   If people want to contribute they should start right with this   task.
  I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo,   dont know about the state in Squeak.
  There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available   open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
 8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...)   to use for describing the contents.   My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since   this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.)   and  even when there are different syntax styles you can provides   builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes   afterwards.
  See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
 9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then   the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar   to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly   map book structures to the class hierarchy.
  The intention was to be able to create, store and manage   these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools.   You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
 10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute   right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the   standard image.
  HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual   sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this   or make it too complicated since this is what people are   used too.
  I dont see more documented classes by introducing a   special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about   - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
 11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources   (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing   could be done right from within the image.   Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
  Look at my example books: I can view and change them   right from the image and make them available to other images   using Metacello/Squeaksource.   Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep   the system and docu in sync and up to date.
  External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see   the Squeak Swiki).
 12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and   Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
 13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we   can generate static files or serve them with Seaside.   But I have no need for that right now, especially since   this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
 - Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate  would really help moving this forward  (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle)  - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
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What would be good is to have a class comments for each of the class we see in HelpSystem openOn: SystemReference. This would be a countable progress. stef On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:32 PM, laurent laffont wrote:
Yes, Python documentation is really impressive, the best I know.
May be we can go the other way, from HelpSystem to web. I've tried something like some months ago.ex: http://magaloma.seasidehosting.st/Collections-Streams.
So we can have a documentation page like http://docs.python.org/py3k/ with: - collaborator book - web edition of Pharo By Example - HelpSystem books - API reference generated from comments in classes / methods (with the possibility to add comments like jQuery or PHP online docs.) All on one page, starting point to look for documentation, at http://docs.pharo-project.org
Cheers,
Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Michael Roberts <mike@mjr104.co.uk> wrote: Laurent, i think this is a tension that a number of us feel. should we put documentation in the colab book, or in the system? For me the two are distinct. The book, ultimately, should read as a book. That is there is a logical flow from start to finish and the content is consistent, from start to finish, for a given version of the system. Writing a book appears hard - i have never done it - but i have attempted to copy-edit material that turned out to be as big as a reasonably sized book; i found that near impossible. So whilst the colab book effort is currently in its infancy, i would expect over time it to tend towards being published as a consistent whole. I'm sure anyone involved in SBE/PBE could comment on the real work required to write such a book.
As for help in the system, as torsten nicely articulated either "Help" or "Reference", this should really be dynamic. It should change at the unit of which it is changing. so if a new version of a package is loaded, perhaps the Reference docs change. using hyperlink references you should be able to jump around it in an arbitrary order. I don't see a book performing this function. really it must flow consistently from start to finish and the layout of the book is carefully picked by the editors. the only realy hyperlink function is from the TOC, and to any particular index or reference. it is quite distinct from arbitrary jumping at a system doc level.
at the moment these two forces I consider are at tension, because there is not enough reference material in the system as we shipped 1.0, and i think the barrier to viewing & editing such reference documentation, as a coherent whole, to my satisfaction is harder than using Pier. therefore i find it easier to edit pier even if i have only contributed a few paragraphs. however longer term this will not be the case. We must strive for something akin to Python documentation. as an engineering artifact, it is simply stunning; you can find documentation on anything to do with a given released version. i'm sure this applies to other languages too, i just use python as an example because I particularly like its style towards doc annotation and its completeness.
so personally i don't think we should export the pier content into the help system. i see them as quite different, and for both to succeed I think they require a different point of view to writing the content.
Torsten - i did not reply to the other thread which stef and I both commented on, have not had the time. For me i am a total pragmatist when it comes toward reference documentation and i am only really interested in reference docs. i fully understand your design and i'm fine with that. I just hope that as a community we can author the reference side, since that is what i feel is most missing.
cheers, Mike
2010/4/21 laurent laffont <laurent.laffont@gmail.com>:
Hi, It's cool to have so many interests in documentation. I deeply think it's a key point to success. As an hobbyist contributor to Pharo documentation :) I wonder whether I should write doc in HelpSystem (which indeed is very cool !) or in the collaborator active book (which is very attractive for me). So a way to get the best of both world may be to generate an HelpSystem book from the collaborator book. Every day, if there has been changes in the collaborative book, it can be "packaged" automatically as an HelpSystem book / SystemHelp , put on squeaksource, having ConfigurationOfHelpSystem project lastVersion pointing to the last package. Sounds good ? Cheers, Laurent Laffont
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann <astares@gmx.de> wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).
3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.
A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer
6. There are two types of help I see:
A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.
I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.
There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.
See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.
The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.
HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.
I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.
External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).
12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
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Torsten may be you should trun your explanation mail into a book section on book.pharo-project.org because it was cool.
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html I think that HelpSystem will be an important piece of Pharo. And I was planning to push it into 1.1 dev :) ASCII is ok for us. Let us be incremental. I like the HelpBrowser openOn: SystemReference :)
I think that this is the way to push people to write cool comment. Check the one of URI in 1.1 :) Now how can we turn pragma tagged method comments and Unit tests into entries in your HelpSystem. HelpBuilder of course :) Now could we agree on a nice pragma for tagging methods and another one sunit tests that should be promoted into the SystemReference I believe that we do not have the resources to write separate documentation as VW does. So at least I would have love to have HelpSystem minus minus where we could get book automatically created from the actual contents of the system. Tagging is way more reachable than writing specific documentation. Then I would love to see package level comments... this was this idea behind DrDoc and this is why I should kick my $%^&finger to finish RPackage Stef On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Torsten Bergmann wrote:
To clearify a few things from my side on the discussion on squeak-dev:
1. HelpSystem is working, if ASCII is OK for now we can use it Pharo/Squeak - otherwise I would see it as an early preview. I have clear goals how it should look like in the next iterations. For this more patience is necessary.
2. HelpSystem is independent from where and how the actual information is stored (I think I demonstrated this with the IRC example, the books and the API help).
3. I hope to keep HelpSystem in sync for major Squeak distributions (Squeak, Pharo, Cuis, ...)
The last additions from Hannes already broke the code in Pharo. Seems to be a Pharo issue this time http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=2342
But please dont commit when it is only working in Squeak since my development environment is Pharo.
4. Yes, the content is currently ASCII but the design is prepared to add other types in future releases.
A HelpTopic defines an ivar "contents" - currently referring to a string. I may add another ivar "contentType" in the future to handle/distinguish additionaly types (HTML, SqueaksRichText, Morphs/BookMorph, ...)
5. HelpSystem should not be limited to Squeak. It should also serve the case that when you write and deploy a commercial app in Squeak you may use it to provide help to your end user/customer
6. There are two types of help I see:
A. SystemHelp: Help books/Tutorials/Manuals B. SystemReference: API Help, class comments
HelpSystem is supporting both. I already wrote about the differences and details in http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-April/024857.html
7. I would really like to see support for HTML viewing in the image (HTMLViewMorph or so) - maybe based on Scamper to get a better viewer (headings, tables, ...) than the current plain text. If people want to contribute they should start right with this task.
I know that Laurent already made Scamper loadable in Pharo, dont know about the state in Squeak.
There is also another HTML browser with markup and CSS now available open source as MIT (WithStyle), I already mentioned this.
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/rowanb/blogView?showComments=true&p...
8. I know that we now have discussions on which syntax (Wiki,...) to use for describing the contents. My answer is: it is important but I dont care (yet) since this discussion is useless until we have an HTML viewer (see 7.) and even when there are different syntax styles you can provides builders to transform them into HTML or other contentTypes afterwards.
See the class HelpBuilder and subclasses.
9. If you want to write a book for SystemHelp (see 6.A) then the help system provides a class "CustomHelp" similar to TestCase in SUnit. This class is used to directly map book structures to the class hierarchy.
The intention was to be able to create, store and manage these books directly with the usual Smalltalk tools. You can even restructure your book with the RefactoringBrowser.
10. If you want to write API help you (see 6.B) can contribute right now by commenting all the undocumented classes in the standard image.
HelpSystem just queries these informations from the usual sources (class comments, ...). I would not change this or make it too complicated since this is what people are used too.
I dont see more documented classes by introducing a special syntax (wiki or whatever) people have to learn/know about - so lets clean up documenting the classes first.
11. HelpSystem is able to get contents from external sources (see the IRC example) - but I would prefer that authoring/viewing could be done right from within the image. Even when the result is stored external afterwards.
Look at my example books: I can view and change them right from the image and make them available to other images using Metacello/Squeaksource. Accessibility of docu (viewing and authoring) is the key to keep the system and docu in sync and up to date.
External authoring mostly results in unmaintained docu (see the Squeak Swiki).
12. I thought again if it is ready to integrate into Pharo and Squeak. From all the discussions I would say it is too early.
13. If one wants the docu on the web the answer is easy: we can generate static files or serve them with Seaside. But I have no need for that right now, especially since this is already available in various forms.
We can do many things (similar to Python, JavaDoc, you name it)
But - let's do it step by step. As I said:
- Someone working on a good HTML Viewer that I can integrate would really help moving this forward (based on Scamper or by porting WithStyle) - Updating class comments would also help a lot
Bye Torsten
-- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
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participants (4)
-
laurent laffont -
Michael Roberts -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Torsten Bergmann