Hi,

By following the instructions from any of the Moose webpages:

http://www.moosetechnology.org/download/pharo
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Moose/Moose


Gofer new
� � � smalltalkhubUser: 'Moose' project: 'Moose';
� � � package: 'ConfigurationOfMoose';
� � � load.
(Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMoose)
� � � perform: #loadDevelopment

Cheers,
Doru


On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 9:01 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:
Stef,

how do I load Moose in a 3.0 image? There is no Moose config in the 3.0 meta repository.

Thierry

De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de St�phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr]
Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 d�cembre 2013 13:47

��: Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

try with Moose.

Stef

On Dec 12, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:

Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :)

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:

I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits).

I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;)

Thierry


De :Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk@me.com]
Date d'envoi :jeudi 12 d�cembre 2013 15:37
��:Pharo Development List
Objet :Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etc�

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:

I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :(

It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue.

My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough?

Thierry


De :Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian@flowingconcept.com]
Date d'envoi :jeudi 12 d�cembre 2013 12:12
��:Pharo Development List
Objet :Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images

�I load filetree like this:

Gofer new
� � � package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree';
� � � load.
((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load.

and it never complained

let me know�




On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:

If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0?

Regards,

Thierry



De :Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian@flowingconcept.com]
Date d'envoi :mercredi 11 d�cembre 2013 17:09
��:Pharo Development List
Objet :Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so.

about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results

have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress







On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr> wrote:

Yes, you're right in the general case.

But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing.

If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3-

(But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ).

Thierry

Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a �crit :
Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping
all every time.

For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast.

So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's
different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of
redundant writes

sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>

o/





On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier@cea.fr
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:



Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a �crit :
ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it
has to write the metadata each time...).

But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of
performance...

I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem:
1 - Slow read time for version metadata
- Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the
package metadata in the repository browser.
2 - Slow metadata write
3 - Slow package write

I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for
2-, and none yet for 3-

So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;)

Thierry


Esteban


On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
<estebanlm@gmail.com<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>
<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:

��Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search...

��(5 mins later)


��here:

https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation

��Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version.

��We should take a look at that.

��Esteban


��On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry
��<thierry.goubier@cea.fr
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote:

������Esteban, Sebastian,

������In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata,
������but it's not in use anymore.

������If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for
������compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it
back.

������I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata,
������but I haven't worked on it for a while.

������gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It
������does not solve any performance problem associated with
writing, yet.

������Thierry

������Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a �crit :

����������I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more
����������compelling
����������for projects that will never use other formats).
����������Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I
����������didn't tested yet
����������(lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail...
����������Dale, can you re-send the link?

����������cheers,
����������Esteban


����������On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre
����������<sebastian@flowingconcept.com
<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
����������<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
����������<mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com
����������<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote:

���������������I should breath before I type, but you probably already
����������got that I
���������������meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)...


���������������Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions
����������some kind of
���������������compatibility metadata.

���������������If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos
����������to save code
���������������why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a
����������toll for no
���������������reason is evil.

���������������Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't
����������extract value
���������������from that feature can opt-out?

���������������sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
����������<https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>


���������������o/





���������������On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre
���������������<sebastian@flowingconcept.com
<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
����������<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>
����������<mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com
����������<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>>
���������������wrote:

�������������������Hi Thierry

�������������������On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry
�������������������<thierry.goubier@cea.fr
<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
��������������<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>
��������������<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr
��������������<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote:


���������������������������I have packages (in the order of hundreds
����������������������of classes) and save
���������������������������delays
���������������������������and package click delays are starting to
����������������������demand patience in a
���������������������������way that
���������������������������doesn't feel like the right path


�����������������������Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing
������������������much with 179
�����������������������classes on a laptop without a SSD.


�������������������choose one. Just for clicking the package that will
��������������should you
�������������������UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16
��������������seconds. Sounds like a
�������������������lot of overhead for reading a small .json file.

�������������������But the write is the most worrisome


���������������������������All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save
����������������������delays would be
���������������������������/way/ beyond
���������������������������unacceptable


�����������������������I'd like to know more, and understand the
������������������reason, for sure. As
�����������������������far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole
������������������package to disk
�����������������������everytime... and maybe optimising that could be
������������������the solution.


�������������������Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time
��������������is the lazy
�������������������thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary
��������������code in a proof of
�������������������concept but that massive redundant reads certainly
��������������doesn't sounds
�������������������like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a
��������������limited
�������������������quantity of writes


�����������������������Thierry

���������������������������sebastian
����������������������<https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
����������������������<https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>

���������������������������o/






�����������������������--
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�����������������������CEA list
�����������������������Laboratoire des Fondations des Syst�mes Temps
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������--
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������CEA list
������Laboratoire des Fondations des Syst�mes Temps R�el Embarqu�s
������91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
������France
������Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92
������<tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> / 83 95




--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des Syst�mes Temps R�el Embarqu�s
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95


--
Thierry Goubier
CEA list
Laboratoire des Fondations des Syst�mes Temps R�el Embarqu�s
91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
France
Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95





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