Amen!
My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than Hollansworth!
I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded programming language...
I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s. I don't care : VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk! I'm closer to Pharo than I am to anything else (except Modula-2).
This stupid war is sooooooo stupid!
If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period.
Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still Smalltalk!
These guys (the Pharoers, and St��phane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James Robertson" ?
I like Pharo. I fell in love with VW 2.5.
Vous ��tes si belles, vous toutes!
I love Smalltalk!
-----------------
Beno��t St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
IRC: lamneth
Blogue:
endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ?
Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority.
I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core.
And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving.
I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ?
I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others:
Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it.
Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo.
+100
On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
- First because we make it to free us from the past.
- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in
the 90 do not discard Pharo because
- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not
work well in team"
- "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
- "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
- "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system
took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
- I did not get how you work in team
- "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in
svn"
- "Smalltalk is monolithic"
- "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the
outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
- "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu
programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
etre si super que cela...."
I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some
education we can show that they are wrong.
There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
No more no less.
So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in
general.
So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the
future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for
Smalltalk to exist in 2050.
The future is much more important that the history.
You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940
you add to cross the street to fetch water.
left blank on purpose
Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a
��crit :
Stef,
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not
live in the same.
Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be
better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends
leaving our language and do node.js.
Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I
will leave. I can tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so
it would be a good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth
and visibility of our system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time
to do something.
Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and
you want to stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that
I'm an asshole that does not want to
promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the
Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.
I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk,
such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it
personally why don't you address my points about older
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived
negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in
it. I admire and respect your efforts, St��phane, in
developing, organizing and supporting this community. But
that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing
is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because
words meaning are important, because to understand each
other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am
grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk,
and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is
inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot
Miranda a ��crit :