Hi,

> On Aug 3, 2016, at 9:16 AM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-18 23:34 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2016-06-18 20:55 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
> Hi,
>
> Command is an actual key on Mac next to Option(which is Alt) and Control. So, Command is a concrete key and mapping it logically to another key on another platform is mixing semantics.
>
> I propose to have two distinct layers in the image:
> 1. the raw layer is about having a distinct selector for each concrete key that is found on the keyboard. Right now, it seems to me that the VM does a bit of interpretation and mapping, and if it does, I think it should just provide a distinct code for each distinct key.
> 2. the portable layer is about having a couple of selectors (e.g., #meta, #secondaryMeta) that provide consistent mappings to the raw keys.
>
> So, in this way, #command/#control/#alt would belong to layer 1. and #meta/#secondaryMeta (we could find a better name) would belong to layer 2.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
>
> So, what does that mean for the text navigation mapping in Rubric. Which shortcut should I use?
>
> Any way to take a decision?
>
> I don't really want to wait until we implement a new layer.

Thanks for the ping.

I think that you cannot use now properly a uniform shortcut if we do not introduce these ���layers���. I also think that we are talking about a couple of methods, so the effort is only in making the decision. I think that given that nobody disagreed, we can go ahead with it.

For the specific question related to text navigation in Rubric, you could use #meta.

What do you think?

Doru

>

> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
> > On Jun 18, 2016, at 8:42 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-17 18:25 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
> > Hi Nicolai,
> >
> > > On Jun 17, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-06-17 14:35 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
> > > Hi Nicolai,
> > >
> > > I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).
> > >
> > > If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
> > > 1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
> > >
> > > As far as I know, this is on purpose. A key pressed with windows (left) alt modified is mapped to "command"
> > >
> > > from vm source:
> > >
> > > *�� �� 3) The modifier keys are mapped as follows:
> > > *
> > > *�� �� �� �� Mac�� �� |�� Win32
> > > *�� �� �� ��--------------------
> > > *�� �� �� ��Shift�� ��-> Shift
> > > *�� �� �� ��Ctrl�� �� -> Ctrl
> > > *�� �� �� ��Command -> Left ALT
> > > *�� �� �� ��Option�� -> Right ALT
> > >
> > > (but actually, the right ALT key does not generate any keystrokes (only key down/up) and it is treated as ctrl+alt (windows right Alt key is "Alt Gr���)
> >
> > Hmm. I think we have to rethink this one because we need two layers of keys:
> > 1. first we should have the raw ones, and
> >
> > what are the "raw" ones? The events the OS generates or the events the VM send out to the image?
> >
> > 2. another layer that offers a more logical keys (like meta).
> >
> > Can you explain this a bit more.
> >
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> >
> > >�� 2. defining the
> > > bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.
> > >
> > > using alt+right on windows/linux and
> > > command + right on mac
> > > for dive-in or for text navigation?
> > >
> > > Is there a default keycombination for word-moving in text components for mac ?
> >
> > On Mac, typically Alt+Right/Left moves between words.
> >
> > So, we would need a logical modifier that would mean:
> > - Mac: Alt
> > - Win: Ctrl
> > - Linux: Ctrl
> >
> > I though this is what Guillermo already did, but with "command"
> >
> > - Mac: Command
> > - Win/Linux: Ctrl
> >
> > Why did we choose Command and not Alt in the first place, why is Alt now better?
> >
> >
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Doru
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Does this make sense?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Doru
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com>:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
> > > >
> > > > On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in�� a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
> > > > because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
> > > > Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
> > > > explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
> > > > (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
> > > >
> > > > exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
> > > >
> > > > Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
> > > > if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
> > > >
> > > > All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
> > > >
> > > > At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
> > > > - Mac: Command
> > > > - Win: Control
> > > > - Linus: Control
> > > >
> > > > This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
> > > >
> > > > You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
> > > > $g alt
> > > > is never recognized. You have to define it
> > > > $g command
> > > > to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
> > > >
> > > > This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Doru
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei@gmail.com>:
> > > > > We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Andrei
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei@gmail.com>:
> > > > > During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Andrei
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
> > > > >
> > > > > ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <henrik.nergaard@uia.no>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of ���cmd��� so for Windows/Linux this would be ���ctrl���.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No, it changed
> > > > >
> > > > > In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Henrik
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > > > > > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>
> > > > > > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cmd+right
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cmd+shift+right
> > > > > >
> > > > > > to
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ctrl+right
> > > > > > ctrl+shift+right
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> > > > > >
> > > > > > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > nicolai
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > www.tudorgirba.com
> > > > www.feenk.com
> > > >
> > > > "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
> > > > you will end up with a messy haircut."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.tudorgirba.com
> > > www.feenk.com
> > >
> > > "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
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> >
> > "Being happy is a matter of choice."
>
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