2013/10/15 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu>

On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:29, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am in favor of using monospaced fonts for the code and sans serif fonts for the rest of the things. I pushed the Source Sans + Source Code fonts for the Moose image since half a year, and actually people like the look of them. I am a bit surprised to see such virulent reactions :).
>
> @Sven: the mail discussions that led to the fonts choice had you in CC the whole time :).

OK, maybe a didn't pay enough attention: I knew it was about look and feel and (a) new font(s), I failed to register that it actually was about using a monospaced font.

I can't belief that you are surprised about the reactions ;-)

For what it is worth, I still haven't heard any solid argument for the change. Even if it is just aesthetics and it doesn't make a difference, there is still the question why we have to change.

> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
> On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:05, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Oct 15, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 16:35, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> except that it is not accurate :)
> >>>
> >>> - with a monospace you can have bolds and italic without problems (it is a decent one)... and you also can play with sizes (for example, for comments)
> >>> - when you copy&paste you will lose part of your formatting no matter if you have a fixed font or a proportional one (is not true that you lose all of them... in fact I usually do not lose any)
> >>
> >> Sorry, but there are no sensible arguments in favour of a monospaced font. It is just not needed (in Smalltalk). Another way to look at it is: 99.99 % of the world use proportional fonts.
> >>
> >> BTW, I think whoever made this 'decision' knew it would be _very_ hard to get this passed ;-)
> >>
> >> Maybe we should switch to C/Java/Javascript syntax so that we do not scare newcomers ? Sorry, I could not resist.
> > not taken.
> > and non sense.
> > idea is to welcome newcomers, not to became another language.
> > Now... if font is *part* of the language, we could be talking about the same. But since it is not, then we are comparing apples with tomatoes.
> >
> > I can say that no, 99% of the world do not use proportional fonts... every other programing environment uses monospaced fonts.
> > yeah, I know "we are different"... but we still code. Ah, no, sorry... we "manipulate objects", but that looks really close to coding for me.
> >
> > and yes... I was expecting a lot of whining (even if it was not me *alone* who took the decision), but I was expecting from people at least wait to see the fonts before start the bashing ;)
>
> Well, it is not 'bashing', I just totally do not agree.
> And I would like to know who else is in favour, how the decision was made.
> But I'll wait a bit for other comments.
>
> >>> On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:53 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Excellent arguments !
> >>>> I am with you 100%
> >>>>
> >>>> On 15 Oct 2013, at 15:21, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Since the days when editors was able to allow me using any fonts, i was always switching to variable-spaced font
> >>>>> for code pane. And i am not speaking about smalltalk or pharo here, it was C and Pascal those days :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> guess, what i would prefer in pharo? :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The bad things about getting used to monospaced fonts is that you format code and it looks perfect,
> >>>>> but then you print it or copy/paste it somewhere else where it uses other font, and all your beautiful formatting are gone.
> >>>>> Needless to say, that printing press was invented way before first computer or digital printer, and all we know about fonts came
> >>>>> to us from the printing world.. and i think i would be right saying that before first digital printers there was not such thing as monospaced
> >>>>> fonts, because it is not economically efficient: you don't want to waste space on front page of your newspaper by aligning glyphs to some virtual grid.
> >>>>> More than that, it works well only if you using same font size and no bold/underline variants whatever.. as soon as you use variants or different font size,
> >>>>> all the benefits of 'formatting' using monospaced font is gone.
> >>>>> That means, if we employ monospaced font for code, we will be forced to not use bold/italic variants, or different font size (for instance,
> >>>>> i would be like to play with code highlight scheme, where comments using different font size, or where method name uses bigger font size etc).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>> Igor Stasenko.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"