"Nope. ��As a C/C++ advocate you are in denial about how unproductive your tools are and about the fact that it takes industrial scale organization to achieve even the most trivial of achievements."

C/C++ , I don't code in those languages. Currently I use pharo, before that I was coding in python and still do, before that I was a Delphi developer. I hate C++ with a vengeance.I am now learning C for my first time.��

I dont see the industry having any problem achieving what it wants with C/C++ because if it did then the software industry would be overrun by smalltalk , which we all know how superior better it is . Actually you will be lucky if a coder was even aware what smalltalk is. I did not know what smalltalk is like a few years ago. I never even saw it mentioned in coding forums or in chat channels until one day someone mentioned squeak to me in #emacs.��

"By recently I mean within the last 10 years or so. ��The HotSpot Smalltalk VM is already 19 years old, and Self 3 over 20. ��PS, the first truly fast VM for a dynamic object oriented language is 32 years old. ��Python could have started an implementation effort at a faster VM much sooner and it would have shaped Python, IMO positively. ��There are reasons Java has been much more popular until recently, performance being a very important one. ��(There's reasons it's no longer popular, IMO the most important being it being statically typed).

Further if you read what the Dropbox guys (and many others) are saying about Pyston vs PyPy is that tracing JITs fail to deliver good performance except in synthetic benchmarks where they shine, and hence Pyston is a method-at-a-time JIT. ��So PyPy is a so-so VM, hardly in the same league as HotSpot or V8 (and Pyston will have a ways to go before i can compete on that level), just as Cog is a so-so VM and needs Sista to reach or exceed static language performance for non-symbolic codes.

And the lack of good support for C/C++ in PyPy is not a technical limitation. ��It is an organizational one. ��There's nothing intrinsic in a fast VM that makes it more difficult to interface to C. ��An execution engine is an execution engine, and it is the object representation that determines how easy it is to interface to other languages."

Bottom line is clear, do optimised VMs are likely to really interest people, from the looks of it does not seem so. I don't care whether PyPy has technical limitations what matters is that I cannot use my favorite cpython libraries with it.��

And that pure python libraries are a rarity is of course a result of the fact that Python has run to C whenever it needed performance. ��Hence when one comes to measure the speedup of a fast python against cpython it is difficult to see speedups because lots of benchmarks (e.g. many of the computer language shootout benchmarks) are spending much of their time ��running C code. ��Hint, if an app spends 50% of its time in C then it can never be more than twice as fast on a faster execution engine."

no python needs to run C libraries because it wants to run C libraries , because they are so many out there and many of them are so damn good at what they are doing. Actually��nowadays��it becomes increasingly difficult not to find python wrappers for a C/C++ library. It comes down to C/C++ coders needing a simpler language that��can easily port their code a lot more than a python coder would need C for speed. ��

"You contradicted yourself in claiming that Pythoners dont yse faster VMs. ��Java has good C integration and provides much better performance than PyPy so if you were correct Pythoners would be using Jython + C but you claim they're not. ��(Personally I'm dubious about blanket claims about what people do and don't do; my experience since I've been involved with commercial Smalltalk deployment is that the world is incredibly varied and different people with different requirements do different things, often for good reason)."

First of all Java has had crappy C integration like for ages , people were complaining about it for a long long time. Second I dont see how I contradict myself , I claimed that python people don't care so much about how fast a VM is when they can fall back to C and you bring up Java speed. What am I missing her ?��

Why not use Jython ? simple same reason why people dont use PyPy lack of support for cpython libraries, which by the way are based partly if not largely in C and if Java had so cool support of C then jython would have supported cpython libraries out of the box , which it does not.��

We can run this in circles but in the end I find it highly suspicious how some smalltalkers find smalltalk so awesome in every level yet they fail to justify why its so unpopular.��

And just for the record , so people dont think I talk out of random, this is Guido , the creator of python , says about PyPy and why is not integrated to cpython and the main goal of cpython -->��http://youtu.be/EBRMq2Ioxsc?t=12m29s

And yes python does not care about innovation at all, and this is one of the reason of its immense success as a language. Actually if you take into consideration that python is not tied to platform like javascript , or is not backed up by a huge company like C++ , Java , C# I dont think its an exaggeration at all that to say that it has been by far the most successful language at least in terms of people actually using it.��

Personally I find python as well completely unoriginal , not that well implemented, very slow and unimaginative. Still its the language, my number one choice, I would recommend to any one in terms of practicality alone.��

I don't want to debate this to death, I stated my opinion and the my view on things, you can call me advocate , fanboy or plain blind. Thats your right. I think however its good to hear the other side of story , the other opinion to make the discussion a bit more spherical.��

Saying that I love smalltalk and especially pharo and I hope it keeps being practical enough for me to keep using it.��