On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Chris Muller <asqueaker@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo
<emaringolo@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2014-09-16 14:37 GMT-03:00 Sebastian Sastre <sebastian@flowingconcept.com>:
>
>> Well, a while ago in the business list I��ve raised the idea that making
>> Pharo able to do native OS windows would help it to gain market space (as in
>> the opposite of staying at the margins of it).
>>
>> So, I��d be very positively curious about being able to use Pharo to do
>> multiplatform native apps
>
> The trend is shifting to mobile devices, iOS and Android are eating
> the whole market. So if it is about the potential market size, native
> mobile (tablets/phones/TVs) should come as the first option, before
> desktop.

+1.�� Desktop apps are "dead" aren't they?�� I'm doubtful that native
windows would help Smalltalk's popularity, as evidenced, I guess, by
the fact VA and VW have supported them for a long time; did they take
over the world yet?

> For development, native windows could prove very useful.

How so?�� For me, one of the worst aspects of trying to develop in
VisualAge or VisualWorks *is* the multiple host windows.�� It makes it
virtually impossible to work in more than one image, and reinforces
the "grand cathedral" thinking about Smalltalk; e.g. you're not
supposed to want or need anything outside your one, true, image.
Dinosaur!

I constantly work in multiple images, not only for separate projects
but for the ability to quickly and easily fork images for multicore
processing on the same project.�� Other times simply to try something
temporary and possibly dangerous.�� The memory isolation is critical
for productivity, the UI isolation for usability, and the multi-core
capability for performance.

I think we should focus on how to move to more and smaller
intercommunicating images rather than one big image.�� I understand its
appeal for _deploying_ an off-the-shelf desktop app, but I'm not aware
of any other use-cases where multiple host windows would be preferable
to one host window per image.

That all makes sense from an experienced Smalltalker's POV. ��But for people exploring the technology the lack of native windows is usually a huge turn-off and often reason to reject the technology. ��The nice thing about Vassili's work is that it allows one to have *both*, without losing window state, and one can switch dynamically, and, IIRC, mix both, e.g. for development. ��So it isn't an exclusive choice.

Re VisualWorks' support for native windows it was an essential component to VW staying in the market-place. ��If it hadn't supported native windows it would have died the commercial death long ago. ��Pre-web, one /had/ to have native windows for industry, and now with mobile native look and feel is even more important. ��Further, VWs huge lack in its GUI was lack of support for native widgets. ��We always used to tout MSWord's use of emulated widgets (apparently for performance reasons) as a defence but it didn't convince. The customer was always provided with poor emulations and a limited supply. ��IMO, native widgets would have made a big difference in hwo well-received VW was for GUI applications, where those using Windows could always turn to VSE.

--
best,

Eliot