Hi Stef,
Thanks for taking the time. I think I did not
express myself properly in the previous mail because we are not
really in disagreement :).
The basic mechanism you talk about exists already in
Spotter. Let me explain. When you type: "#e graphs", you will
get two examples (and only the example search is being
performed).
<Mail-Anhang.png>
This works because the name of the �Examples�
category starts with �E�.
Until now we did not have a top level processor that
would search for Senders (only inside a method). So, because of
this you could not search for them at the top level. In the
meantime Stefan just finished implementing it, the name of the
category is Senders. So, you will type �#s something�.
<Mail-Anhang.png>
I now made the category name start with # so that it
is closer to the way to query for it. So, when you do not know
how, you will just search for �something�. Then you will
discover the #Senders category, and then you can learn that you
can search for it.
Now, you seem to be saying that instead of �#s
something� you want to type �#n something�. For this we would
need to find a solution to reconcile the two. My proposal was to
maybe introduce something like �&n something� to distinguish
between the string match of a category name and a �shortcut� (I
do not know how to call it). I can see how to do this
technically, but I still think this is less discoverable then
the filtering by the name like described above, and it would be
an extra mechanism. We could add this shortcut next to the
category name to address this issue. The interesting thing about
the shortcut is that we could possibly make it less ambiguous.
For example, if you have two categories starting with #S, you
will get both when you type �#S something�, which is less ideal
for a common case. So, there are pros and cons.
Now, what is missing is a top level category for
References, and I really think we would have what you wanted
(and it is a good goal). The cool thing is that we would be
solving this problem with a generic mechanism.
So, what I am suggesting is to invest a bit in
categories (#Senders can be integrated now) and then we play
with it.
Is this explanation clearer? Did I misunderstand
something? What do you think?
Cheers,
Doru
On Jan 10, 2016, at 10:23 PM,
stepharo <stepharo@free.fr>
wrote:
Ok my last attempt :(
When I look for something there are two cases
- most of the time
I ********************KKKKNNNOOOOOOOWWWWWWW*********
is it clear? I know I know I know what I look for and I
WANT THE FASTER WAY TO GET IT
=> no three clicks and strange navigation.
I want the sender of this message (not the implementors
the sender)
I want that package
I want the references to this class (not the class and the
refs that class)
and I'm ready to learn
#N for reference
#n for senders
#m for implementors
Because they are the same.
#e for example like in the finder
- looking around and the system can propose me something
and I can navigate and think.
But this is ok I just use Spotter to open the class browser
and all the rest I do it with shortcuts.
I tried to help but I failed.
I will present Spotter as the great tool to open browser
because I cannot use it otherwise and
nobody around me can show me on the spot something more
efficient than a shortcut in a workspace.
Or may be I will simply not spend energy doing a videos on
Spotter because to me this is not ready
and far less usable than it is supposed to be.
Now to me Spotter is taking a lot of classes for the gain I
get. What esteban did or what is in Squeak
is working perfectly for me because Spotter does not let me
express my needs.
So may be you have other needs but I would like to know how
people really works and not
how Spotter should be usefull.
The video of dimitry shows that well: Just browse a class
and sometimes you get an implementor
May be you do not like my mail because they look aggressive
but when is the last time
you did a real study with users that were not already
convinced. Or may be with users
that loves just one tiny feature and not the one you think
that they use?
And BTW it hangs my images two times with 4.0 when I was in
africa and this was annoying.
Stef
I do not get why you cannot
- have a set of fixed most used queries and this
will create a small vocabulary that can be extensible
and it can be mapped to what we do with shortcuts =
reduce cognitive load
and then a full search when you do not know what you
are searching.
This is not exclusive and
it works for the two scenario.
I understand the intention, but I do not understand how
these fixed queries are any different than we have now. When
you are on the top of Spotter, when you query, you get
always the same processors being executed. At first you will
not know their names, and you will scroll. And if you see
them, you might remember them and reproduce afterwards. It�s
a discoverable learning process that you do not have
to remember.
Because with these wonderfull queries I do not get what I'm
looking for.
Because the system is trying to guess what I have in my mind
and this system is not good for that because I'm thinking
about
the metallica song I'm listening.
The only part that is not discoverable
is that # introduces a category search. Thinking loud, I
just thought that we can make the label start with # like
this (I committed this change):
Sorry but I do not get it.
<Mail
Attachment.png>
We also thought of having completion as soon as someone type
#. So, you have a kind of a dropdown for the available
categories, but we did not get to implement that one. This
should solve the discoverability problem even more. What do
you think about that?
Why not
but just a ghost with
#n printOn: #m #N ....
would be a huge improvement
Each time I used Spotter to look for something more than a
class I could not find it.
Regarding the shortcuts, we could
associated such shortcuts with a processor, but I would
first want to see if we cannot manage to produce a solution
with the current set of options.
I was not saying shortcuts and I was thinking the same
vocabulary
Cmd+N
#N
Cmd+m
#m
Cmd+n
#n
I was discussing with Luc
and he made a fun but sad remark
"Since people do not understand well spotter they most
of the time only use it to open a class.
And this is something that he already had before."
I briefly looked at the Youtube video of Chloupis and
So you can have a generic
super cool tool, if people do not use it it defeats its
purpose.
Certainly.
You can be really happy
because you go fast with it but you only.
That is not really true :).
See my remark above.
So making sure that the
most used actions are really supported is important.
Of course it is. For Senders we did not find a good solution
yet that is reasonably fast and useful. Stefan and I are
still literally working on this. I think we should be able
to have a solution, but we have to see if it is reasonable
enough. We will announce it once we have it working.
the problem is that you want to solve everything at once.
While the divide and conquer is the solution for the first
scenario I mention. I do not need something that crawls the
entire system when I have one precise query.
But, really, this tool more than anything allows one to play
with possibilities in a couple of lines of code. We want
people to play (some did) and to get concrete feedback and
possible solutions. I think we should not just say that
we need something else before we actually play with it a
bit more.
I do not get it.
I never worked with me. And so far I did not see anybody
succeeding to show me how to find something that I cannot
find faster with a shortcut.
But more important
the discoverability is important because there is not even
a help.
Right now as a user I can
only guess and often I close spotter and use my shortcuts.
As a user I see something
that ask me about network (and I do not care) but nothing
that brings me to the next level.
This is something we need to work on, but you know, time is
limited for us, too.
Add a button and an help text copied from your blog!
And you will have made a 100% documentation jump.
Most of the time the
user forgets the key combination (may be this will be
solved with
the cool shortcut reminder we developed and is under
review)
All actions in spotter have a visible icon. All. And if you
hover over it you get the command. And there are literally 5
such actions. What is missing in this regard from your point
of view?
I do not know
They do not cover what I want to do.
I do not care of setting
Most of the time I do not care about seeing all. I saw now
that you have an arrow to show more than the top 5
good but again Cmd-shift > is not easy to type and give
pain.
I do not understand why I should dive in most of the time.
I realised that I could use Spotter when I saw that I can
press shift under the return because
before I got immediate pain when trying with the left shift.
To me left shift is a NO WAY.
esc (top left) would work but I did not have the time to
hack Spotter.
Doru
Stef
--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."