[Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Squeak and Tonel

Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda at gmail.com
Sun Feb 17 16:30:43 EST 2019


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:00 PM ducasse <stepharo at netcourrier.com> wrote:

> Hi eliot
>
> What is common in your thread is that we always look like the super
> emotional, or bad guys.
> You never ask yourselves why Esteban left the VM mailing-list.
>

What is common is that I discuss technical matters (difficulties in using
Tonel/git, architectural issues with developing the VM) and organizational
issues (Estebans' unhelpful response regarding an option in Tonel) and you
immediately personalize, do not bring up a single technical issue, and then
make grand pronouncements like :this is the last email I'll send you".
Laughable and sad.


>
> And I do not see why you cannot fork Tonel to produce your own version.
> Git is about distributed projects. People do that all the time. You can
> take Tonel and hack it to death
> without having your hacks pushed back into Pharo and this is perfectly ok
> for us.
> So Esteban has the right to say no and you have the right to hack your own
> version.
>
> If you want to have some support for porting Scorch/Sista to github and
> loading you should ask
> but asking it more nicely.
>
> About the simulation of the UI, if you do not talk to us we cannot pay
> attention.
> I do not see why we cannot keep a package with the image level UI for the
> simulator.
> Now again you are talking about collaboration but you do not talk to us
> and you do not
> listen to us so do not expect that people are willing to spend their free
> time to help.
>
>
> I had deep concerns that the pursuit of git integration would end up
> splitting the Pharo and Squeak communities and indeed this is now in
> progress.  I am utterly unmotivated by the lack of cooperation, the sheer
> arrogance and bullying of those that say "you will move to git/tonel or
> else”,
>
>
> This is fun to ask Pharo not to grow up to use modern technology to manage
> source code under the
> premisses that Squeak cannot or will not.
> This is so funny how you state it. I will not comment more than that.
> People around are adults and they will be able to judge by themselves.
>
> and considering leaving VMMaker altogether.
>
>
> If you leave VMMaker, let us know because we will port it to Github and
> make it work in Pharo.
> Esteban did it several times in the past. At least this will have the
> benefit to clarify the situation.
>
> I think that this is good that you tell us that you do not want to
> cooperate with us.
> This will have at least the impact to kick our ass and pay attention to
> us.
>
> The only things that are keeping me interested are Ron Teitelbaum's Terf
> and me pursuing a PhD on register allocation in the context of Sista/Scorch
> with Robert Hirshfeld's group at HPI.
>
> Here's the kind of crap people like Ducasse throw at me:
>
> "Eliot
>
> At the end of the day I will probably ask the two phds that should work on language
> design to use truffle or pypy
> because let us face it we cannot work with the Pharo VM. Else we will
> simply have to fork it (because we do not want to have
> to jump over cuis, newspeak, squeak code constraints and I do not what)
> and it will be another drama is in the pico world
> of the “open” smalltalk VM. "
>
> I am so over this crap.
>
>
> This is not a crap. I can restate what I said. Because of responsibility
> of a research team and creating a future for students. You know I’m not
> alone, I have quite some responsibility towards PhD students
> of my group and yes I cannot make them fail by construction (or produce
> unadequate results)
> just by imposing them to use a system with far too many constraints.
>
> I will not ask them to work on the openSmalltalk vm directly because this
> is not their responsibilities
> to have to jump over newspeak ifdef and others.  A job of a PhD is to be
> able to brainstorm and create new ideas. Look at Stefan Marr (He is working
> on SOM or Truffle).
>
> Now you can think that I’m an asshole, arrogant, or I do not know pick
> what you want.
> ***I do not care***. I do not have Diva syndrome I have responsibilities
> towards people.
>
> I was discussing with some truffle experts and they told me that this is
> can be complex. I believe it.
> I would like to avoid pypy for obvious reasons. So what we will probably
> do for their PhD is to see if we can use a light version of opensmalltalk.
> I do not want to ask them to jump over many things that are totally useless
> for them all the time.
>
>
> PS: personnally I do not get why VMMaker would be the only project on
> earth that cannot be managed using git and Pharo.
> But for us the future is Git and we will continue to build on this
> infrastructure.
>
>
> Stef
>
>
> _,,,^..^,,,_
> best, Eliot
>
>
>

-- 
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot
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