[Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Squeak and Tonel

ducasse stepharo at netcourrier.com
Sun Feb 17 16:21:18 EST 2019


BTW Eliot, I just discovered by accident emails you sent me last week there are full on insults . I will not forward them in this mailing-list because it does not help. 
This is not the first that you do that to me. The first time I went over them and supported
Clément to work with you. Now I will not consider your mails anymore. 

Sorry but you cannot talk publicly about collaboration and privately insult people that way. 

Now if you believe that I do pharo about ego then you do not understand anything :)
And I will not try to convince you otherwise. This is my last email sent to you. 

Stef

> On 17 Feb 2019, at 21:59, ducasse <stepharo at netcourrier.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi eliot
> 
> What is common in your thread is that we always look like the super emotional, or bad guys. 
> You never ask yourselves why Esteban left the VM mailing-list. 
> 
> And I do not see why you cannot fork Tonel to produce your own version. 
> Git is about distributed projects. People do that all the time. You can take Tonel and hack it to death
> without having your hacks pushed back into Pharo and this is perfectly ok for us. 
> So Esteban has the right to say no and you have the right to hack your own version. 
> 
> If you want to have some support for porting Scorch/Sista to github and loading you should ask 
> but asking it more nicely. 
> 
> About the simulation of the UI, if you do not talk to us we cannot pay attention.
> I do not see why we cannot keep a package with the image level UI for the simulator. 
> Now again you are talking about collaboration but you do not talk to us and you do not 
> listen to us so do not expect that people are willing to spend their free time to help.
> 
> 
>> I had deep concerns that the pursuit of git integration would end up splitting the Pharo and Squeak communities and indeed this is now in progress.  I am utterly unmotivated by the lack of cooperation, the sheer arrogance and bullying of those that say "you will move to git/tonel or else”, 
> 
> This is fun to ask Pharo not to grow up to use modern technology to manage source code under the 
> premisses that Squeak cannot or will not. 
> This is so funny how you state it. I will not comment more than that.
> People around are adults and they will be able to judge by themselves. 
> 
>> and considering leaving VMMaker altogether. 
> 
> If you leave VMMaker, let us know because we will port it to Github and make it work in Pharo. 
> Esteban did it several times in the past. At least this will have the benefit to clarify the situation. 
> 
> I think that this is good that you tell us that you do not want to cooperate with us. 
> This will have at least the impact to kick our ass and pay attention to us. 
> 
>> The only things that are keeping me interested are Ron Teitelbaum's Terf and me pursuing a PhD on register allocation in the context of Sista/Scorch with Robert Hirshfeld's group at HPI.
>> 
>> Here's the kind of crap people like Ducasse throw at me:
>> 
>> "Eliot 
>> 
>> At the end of the day I will probably ask the two phds that should work on language design to use truffle or pypy
>> because let us face it we cannot work with the Pharo VM. Else we will simply have to fork it (because we do not want to have 
>> to jump over cuis, newspeak, squeak code constraints and I do not what) and it will be another drama is in the pico world 
>> of the “open” smalltalk VM. "
>> 
>> I am so over this crap.
> 
> This is not a crap. I can restate what I said. Because of responsibility of a research team and creating a future for students. You know I’m not alone, I have quite some responsibility towards PhD students
> of my group and yes I cannot make them fail by construction (or produce unadequate results)
> just by imposing them to use a system with far too many constraints. 
> 
> I will not ask them to work on the openSmalltalk vm directly because this is not their responsibilities
> to have to jump over newspeak ifdef and others.  A job of a PhD is to be able to brainstorm and create new ideas. Look at Stefan Marr (He is working on SOM or Truffle). 
> 
> Now you can think that I’m an asshole, arrogant, or I do not know pick what you want.
> ***I do not care***. I do not have Diva syndrome I have responsibilities towards people. 
> 
> I was discussing with some truffle experts and they told me that this is can be complex. I believe it. 
> I would like to avoid pypy for obvious reasons. So what we will probably do for their PhD is to see if we can use a light version of opensmalltalk. I do not want to ask them to jump over many things that are totally useless for them all the time. 
> 
> 
> PS: personnally I do not get why VMMaker would be the only project on earth that cannot be managed using git and Pharo. 
> But for us the future is Git and we will continue to build on this infrastructure. 
> 
> 
> Stef
> 
>> 
>> _,,,^..^,,,_
>> best, Eliot

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