[Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

Yuriy Tymchuk yuriy.tymchuk at me.com
Thu Dec 12 10:20:12 EST 2013


Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :)

Uko

On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier at cea.fr> wrote:

> I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits).
> 
> I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;)
> 
> Thierry
> 
> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces at lists.pharo.org] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk at me.com]
> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 décembre 2013 15:37
> À : Pharo Development List
> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow
> 
> Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etc…
> 
> Uko
> 
> On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier at cea.fr> wrote:
> 
>> I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :(
>> 
>> It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue.
>> 
>> My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough?
>> 
>> Thierry
>> 
>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces at lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian at flowingconcept.com]
>> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 décembre 2013 12:12
>> À : Pharo Development List
>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow
>> 
>> gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images
>> 
>>  I load filetree like this:
>> 
>> Gofer new
>>       url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/FileTree';
>>       package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree';
>>       load.
>> ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load.
>> 
>> and it never complained
>> 
>> let me know 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier at cea.fr> wrote:
>> 
>>> If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Thierry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces at lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian at flowingconcept.com]
>>> Date d'envoi : mercredi 11 décembre 2013 17:09
>>> À : Pharo Development List
>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow
>>> 
>>> ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so.
>>> 
>>> about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results
>>> 
>>> have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier at cea.fr> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Yes, you're right in the general case.
>>>> 
>>>> But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing.
>>>> 
>>>> If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3-
>>>> 
>>>> (But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ).
>>>> 
>>>> Thierry
>>>> 
>>>> Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a écrit :
>>>>> Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping
>>>>> all every time.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's
>>>>> different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of
>>>>> redundant writes
>>>>> 
>>>>> sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>
>>>>> 
>>>>> o/
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier at cea.fr
>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
>>>>>>> ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it
>>>>>>> has to write the metadata each time...).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of
>>>>>> performance...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem:
>>>>>> 1 - Slow read time for version metadata
>>>>>> - Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the
>>>>>> package metadata in the repository browser.
>>>>>> 2 - Slow metadata write
>>>>>> 3 - Slow package write
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for
>>>>>> 2-, and none yet for 3-
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thierry
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Esteban
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano
>>>>>>> <estebanlm at gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:estebanlm at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   (5 mins later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   here:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   We should take a look at that.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   Esteban
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>   On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry
>>>>>>>   <thierry.goubier at cea.fr
>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       Esteban, Sebastian,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata,
>>>>>>>       but it's not in use anymore.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for
>>>>>>>       compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it
>>>>>>> back.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata,
>>>>>>>       but I haven't worked on it for a while.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It
>>>>>>>       does not solve any performance problem associated with
>>>>>>> writing, yet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       Thierry
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>           I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more
>>>>>>>           compelling
>>>>>>>           for projects that will never use other formats).
>>>>>>>           Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I
>>>>>>>           didn't tested yet
>>>>>>>           (lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail...
>>>>>>>           Dale, can you re-send the link?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>           cheers,
>>>>>>>           Esteban
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>           On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre
>>>>>>>           <sebastian at flowingconcept.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at __flowingconcept.com
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                I should breath before I type, but you probably already
>>>>>>>           got that I
>>>>>>>                meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions
>>>>>>>           some kind of
>>>>>>>                compatibility metadata.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos
>>>>>>>           to save code
>>>>>>>                why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a
>>>>>>>           toll for no
>>>>>>>                reason is evil.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't
>>>>>>>           extract value
>>>>>>>                from that feature can opt-out?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
>>>>>>>           <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                o/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre
>>>>>>>                <sebastian at flowingconcept.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at __flowingconcept.com
>>>>>>>           <mailto:sebastian at flowingconcept.com>>>
>>>>>>>                wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                    Hi Thierry
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                    On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry
>>>>>>>                    <thierry.goubier at cea.fr
>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr>
>>>>>>>               <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr>
>>>>>>>               <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr
>>>>>>>               <mailto:thierry.goubier at cea.fr>__>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                            I have packages (in the order of hundreds
>>>>>>>                       of classes) and save
>>>>>>>                            delays
>>>>>>>                            and package click delays are starting to
>>>>>>>                       demand patience in a
>>>>>>>                            way that
>>>>>>>                            doesn't feel like the right path
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                        Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing
>>>>>>>                   much with 179
>>>>>>>                        classes on a laptop without a SSD.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                    choose one. Just for clicking the package that will
>>>>>>>               should you
>>>>>>>                    UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16
>>>>>>>               seconds. Sounds like a
>>>>>>>                    lot of overhead for reading a small .json file.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                    But the write is the most worrisome
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                            All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save
>>>>>>>                       delays would be
>>>>>>>                            /way/ beyond
>>>>>>>                            unacceptable
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                        I'd like to know more, and understand the
>>>>>>>                   reason, for sure. As
>>>>>>>                        far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole
>>>>>>>                   package to disk
>>>>>>>                        everytime... and maybe optimising that could be
>>>>>>>                   the solution.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                    Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time
>>>>>>>               is the lazy
>>>>>>>                    thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary
>>>>>>>               code in a proof of
>>>>>>>                    concept but that massive redundant reads certainly
>>>>>>>               doesn't sounds
>>>>>>>                    like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a
>>>>>>>               limited
>>>>>>>                    quantity of writes
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                        Thierry
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                            sebastian
>>>>>>>                       <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept
>>>>>>>                       <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                            o/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                        --
>>>>>>>                        Thierry Goubier
>>>>>>>                        CEA list
>>>>>>>                        Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps
>>>>>>>                   Réel Embarqués
>>>>>>>                        91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>>>>>>>                        France
>>>>>>>                        Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92
>>>>>>>                   <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092>
>>>>>>>                        <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%__2008%2032%2092>
>>>>>>>                   / 83 95
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>       --
>>>>>>>       Thierry Goubier
>>>>>>>       CEA list
>>>>>>>       Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
>>>>>>>       91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>>>>>>>       France
>>>>>>>       Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92
>>>>>>>       <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> / 83 95
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Thierry Goubier
>>>>>> CEA list
>>>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
>>>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>>>>>> France
>>>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Thierry Goubier
>>>> CEA list
>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des Systèmes Temps Réel Embarqués
>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex
>>>> France
>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

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