[Pharo-dev] Smalltalk in a C World

Eliot Miranda eliot.miranda at gmail.com
Mon Dec 9 13:33:12 EST 2013


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:01 AM, phil at highoctane.be <phil at highoctane.be>wrote:
>
>> The main issue is that it is complicated to embed the VM in C code.
>> That's due to how the VM is done.
>>
>> Compared to TCL, where you can easily embed the interpreter in a C
>> program, this is a problem. http://wiki.tcl.tk/3474
>>
>> Where you can embed the interpreter in a C program, you can do whatever
>> integration you want.
>>
>> Now, with NativeBoost, we can call C. The next challenge would be to be
>> able to call Pharo from C by embedding the interpreter.
>>
>> I am curious to  see what you guys think about this.
>>
>
> It is non-trivial, but possible (I've done it twice with VisualWorks).
>  Spur should help (pinning is important).  Callbacks r essential (Cog
> provides them).
>
> 1. the VM is restructured as a launch .exe and a dll.
> 2. the VM is restructured so that one can include an image as a resource
> (windows exe's) or static data (e.g. unix); one can use an image file but
> if one really wants a library it must exist just as a library
> 3. one needs an API to the VM, and essentially that requires an object
> request broker (ORB) between the API and callbacks into the image, so that
> one can query for objects (including selectors) to be able to send messages
> to them
>
> Note that step 3. can be implemented as a small stand-alone library that
> talks to the VM running in a separate process, and on multi-core machines
> this can be a more robust architecture; there's no protection against a
> program corrupting the Smalltalk heap if the heap is in that program's
> address space.  But if the requirement is really a linkable library (that
> does not spawn processes) then that's what one builds.
>
>
>> I would love to see things like mod_pharo (as there is mod_php, mod_perl,
>> mod_tcl...) in Apache.
>>
>
> I embedded VW in a web browser as a Netscape plugin using both variants of
> 3. above back in the 90's.  It is very possible.  The limiting factors are
> time and money as usual.
>
>
> I would love for VM discussions to be carried out on vm-dev ;-)
>

or at least cc'ed there...


>
>
> ---
>> Philippe Back
>> Dramatic Performance Improvements
>> Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027
>> Mail:phil at highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu
>> Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback
>> Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos
>>
>> High Octane SPRL
>> rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium
>>
>> Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/
>> Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast -
>> http://spamcast.libsyn.com
>> Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value
>> Added Reseller
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> please note that generating dlls alone wont be enough , plugins are
>>> compiled against a runtime or specific libraries (a Plugin SDK) and
>>> Smalltalk MT would have to be able to do that in order to be a viable
>>> solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <
>>> stephane.ducasse at inria.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You should think that they use their smalltalk for their projects.
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 9, 2013, at 9:21 AM, Clément Bera <bera.clement at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How can people even know Smalltalk MT still exist with their website
>>>> and their communication ?
>>>>
>>>> I looked at other Smalltalks a while ago, for Smalltalk MT I clicked on
>>>> "what's new" on their website and I got that:
>>>>
>>>> <Screen Shot 2013-12-09 at 9.18.11 AM.png>
>>>>
>>>> Then I thought this Smalltalk was dead (nothing new in the past 4
>>>> years) and I didn't look any further.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/12/8 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Yes - still alive and kicking. But I'm sure you did not notice since
>>>>> there
>>>>> > are no "big" announcements or advertising for it.
>>>>> > ObjectConnect follows the "time is better invested into technology"
>>>>> strategy.
>>>>> > It is one of the most interesting Smalltalks ever implemented.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.objectconnect.com/stmt_overview.htm
>>>>> I like the idea that you can get 50kb applications.
>>>>> Now since this is a closed system and windows-centric.
>>>>> But I like that it shows that Smalltalk does not have to be the image
>>>>> centric way.
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The newest ST/MT 6.3 version (now 64 bit) is from end of November
>>>>> 2013
>>>>>
>>>>> Now it is not a community thing. :)
>>>>> And the web site stop and 5.6 in 2009.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I talk to tarrick he told me that he could control the "no
>>>>> gc in the next 250 frames on PS2"
>>>>> but it was in 1998 :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> best,
> Eliot
>



-- 
best,
Eliot
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