[Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

Cédrick Béler cdrick65 at gmail.com
Wed Mar 4 08:56:40 EST 2009

2009/3/4 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>:
> Fun enough I got the same feeling. Do you remember this etoy 3.8
> release that should have been done fast and
> last more than a couple of month and after no communication with 3.9
> at all. Or the fork of Croquet.
> So Marcus do not worry I can tell you that we are not paranoid and I
> will not let anybody damage us.
> And now we are even considered as the bad guy not wanted to merge....
> I believe that people gets afraid by Pharo or have time to show us
> that we are wrong (of course some may want to
> really collaborate).

let's say (hope) this is a question of favorable conjecture (which you
hadn't back when you took 3.9)...

I think Matthiew and Keith... and some others, really pushed the idea
to live with forks (instead of building another image)...  After a
year or two, people start to go in their way... + people have maybe
more time to collaborate. IMO, the arrival of Igor and Eliot is also a
big win...

I think 2008 was a good smalltalk year... Pharo is a good choice
though because you offer something to developer that was simply absent
before and moreover, "people" were really reluctant to go in that
direction for squeak hence all your problems... So still, even if
there's a resurgence of squeak development collaboration, Pharo has
its place for the everyday developer  (even people like me who like to
do simple stuffs ... but in smalltalk). I see Pharo as the Smalltalk
oriented to developers, where you experience good development
practices (and invent new one) whereas squeak is more global, touch at
everything, experiment in all directions...

Pharo decision process will be anyway quicker than squeak (even with
Andreas proposal)... You can't imagine how much a little change like
the menu shrinking is important to me (and looked impossible to ask
for in squeak...). Maybe you won't totally reinvent Smalltalk but you
already provide a solid smalltalk basis for everyday work (nb: I'm
interested in first class slots ;) ).

Anyway I find the present synergy around smalltalk/squeak/pharo/gs...
really cool. Even if I understand your frustration, it might be
important to try to stay in sync as much as possible.

Keep the really good work :)

My 2 cents,

> For now I will not discuss that point anymore on this list because we
> do not make any progress and
> we do not have to justify ourselves.
>>>> The croquet people namely (andreas) are on my case, and he clearly
>>> gets
>>> this concept since he based his "running for the board" email on it.
>>> The cobalt people = matthew and others, they "get it", and are using
>>> some of the tools, and proposing common libraries.
>>> Bertf has expressed an interest in etoys moving up to 3.10+ if the
>>> transition can be eased.
> I'm curious to see what they would gain.
> And as if merging two streams would be that easy.
>> So interestingly, all these peope never had *any* interest in
>> cooperating on anything.
>> Etoys ignored 3.9 *completely*. (and all my activity to merge etoys
>> back before that was always done not with that much enthusiasm from
>> their side. I  got some bit of help from Bert and Michael, but the
>> activity always came from  my side).
>> Andreas disapeared for years (just to pee on us for a good laugh
>> on   and off).
>> So I really wonder why they all changed their mind suddenly.
>> Seriously.
>>       Marcus
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