[Pharo-project] Strange bugs?

Stéphane Ducasse stephane.ducasse at inria.fr
Sun Nov 2 12:09:31 EST 2008


this mail is harsh at all.
This person took the time to really try to understand the problems he  
got.

Now he was reacting to my email stating to a newbie that he should  
have a look at pharo.
So there is no problem with that.

Stef


On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:

>
> On 02.11.2008, at 15:16, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> I would be interesting to understand
>> hese two points:
>> 	- times repeat changes
>
> There is no change of timesRepeat: in the image (and in the  
> changeset). It has no versions other the _ to := rewrite. Thus
> there has been no wrong version of timesRepeat: at any point in Pharo.
>
>>
>> 	- hex removal (I do not remember why we removed it).
>
> The only sender of hex: was the method asHTMLColor, in Pharo, this  
> was changed (bf) to not call hex: anymore.
> I guess this change removed the hex:, as there where no senders.
>
> It seems to have been harvested from this Squeak bugreport:
>
> 	http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6936
>
> I personally think the critique we see down is far too harsh. If you  
> had no bugs in 3.9, then this is because
> you used a stable, released version of 3.9. There is no such version  
> of Pharo yet. If you would have used an unstable
> version of 3.9, you would have seen bugs, too.
>
> 	Marcus
>
>
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: lists at moedae.net
>>> Date: November 2, 2008 12:36:59 AM CEST
>>> To: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse at free.fr>
>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>>> Reply-To: taun <lists at moedae.net>
>>>
>>> More details about the timesRepeat and hex problems I had. I know  
>>> when I found them I asked myself why someone would have touched  
>>> timesRepeat and why hex would have been removed. Neither made any  
>>> sense. Yet I also know my first view of each method in the image I  
>>> was using was through the debugger after the problem had become  
>>> apparent.
>>>
>>> timesRepeat background.
>>>
>>> Towards the beginning of this week,
>>> I downloaded the latest Pharo image.
>>> Opened and updated the image.
>>> Saved image.
>>> Used Monticello to loaded the application I was working on.
>>> Application had some OrderedCollections which were missing the  
>>> last element value.
>>> Checked my loop limits and found them to be correct.
>>> Saw it was runnning my loop once rather than twice and this was  
>>> happening at timesRepeat:.
>>> Debugged and stepped through including stepping into the  
>>> timesRepeat: method.
>>> Saw timesRepeat had < rather than <=.
>>> Scratched my head wondering why on the world this would be.
>>> I checked the versions to see if there were initials and a  
>>> previous version. There weren't
>>> Updated image.
>>> Ran my application and it was fine.
>>> Checked timesRepeat: and it was back to normal.
>>> Checked my code in Monticello and it had no overrides for  
>>> timesRepeat:.
>>>
>>> A mystery. One guess would be in stepping through the code, the  
>>> delete key was hit while in the timesRepeat: method and the method  
>>> was saved. How I could delete, save then have to restart the  
>>> debugging all without realizing it is also a mystery. I have two  
>>> young kids so maybe one of them helped with the distraction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As for the missing Color #hex:, I looked through the Pharo change  
>>> log and found,...
>>>
>>> !ScriptLoader methodsFor: 'sapphire - scripts' stamp:  
>>> 'stephane.ducasse 6/8/2008 22:28'!
>>> script124
>>>
>>> 	| names|
>>> names := '39Deprecated-sd.12.mcz
>>> ...
>>> Cut lots of code from here but see below.
>>> ...
>>> Color class removeSelector: #hex:!
>>>
>>> "Graphics"!
>>>
>>> "GraphicsTests"!
>>>
>>> "Tests"!
>>>
>>> "Postscript:
>>> Leave the line above, and replace the rest of this comment by a  
>>> useful one.
>>> Executable statements should follow this comment, and should
>>> be separated by periods, with no exclamation points (!!).
>>> Be sure to put any further comments in double-quotes, like this  
>>> one."
>>>
>>> |repository|
>>> repository := MCHttpRepository
>>>              location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/Pharo/'
>>>              user: ''
>>>              password: ''.
>>> (repository loadVersionFromFileNamed:'ScriptLoader- 
>>> stephane.ducasse.434.mcz') load.
>>> ScriptLoader new update10034.
>>> !
>>>
>>> ----End fileIn of a stream----!
>>>
>>> Taun
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "stephane ducasse" <stephane.ducasse at free.fr>
>>> To: "taun" <lists at moedae.net>, "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org 
>>> >
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 1, 2008 5:49:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada  
>>> Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2008, at 5:56 AM, lists at moedae.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Having not done a survey, I can only talk from my personal
>>>> experience. So far my personal experience is I have had about the
>>>> same number of issues in 2 weeks of using Pharo as in 2 years with
>>>> Squeak 3.9 and 3.10.
>>>>
>>>> In Pharo, some OmniBrowser functionality was broken and as I said
>>>> timesRepeat: was broken. It had a '<' rather than '<=' for the loop
>>>> comparison so the loop ran one too few times. I ran an update which
>>>> fixed both problems. However the update also changed the World menu
>>>> and eliminated the flaps (I like the new menu and the flaps were
>>>> redundant). As someone who has used SmallTalk for over 20 years and
>>>> someone who hopefully understands why Pharo is so dynamic at the
>>>> moment, I can live with the issues mentioned previously. When I
>>>> debugged my loop, got to the timesRepeat: method and saw the test
>>>> condition, it was obvious what was wrong.
>>>
>>> This is strange since I did not recall a change at that level.
>>>
>>>> I then performed an update in the hope that someone had already
>>>> fixed the problem. They had. I wanted to try out SmallFaces. I
>>>> loaded and started to test SmallFaces in the latest Pharo image.  
>>>> The
>>>> code broke. It turns out Pharo's Color class was missing #hex:. A
>>>> method in the 3.9
>>>
>>> This is strange since we started from 3.9
>>>
>>>> and 3.10 images and used by SmallFaces. Again, a minor item to fix,
>>>> but not if you are new to SmallTalk and Squeak/Pharo.
>>>
>>> I agree pharo is probably changing too fast for a new comers.
>>> I should have say: 'Sergio if you hate the long menus of squeak  
>>> have a
>>> look at pharo. If one day you start to look at squeak and start to
>>> think that there
>>> 	are some really bad smell like core behavior depending on UI, then
>>> have a look at pharo'
>>>
>>> Note please report to us any problem you get for running your
>>> applications.
>>>
>>>> Before recommending the current version of Pharo to a new
>>>> SmallTalker, I think one really needs to ask oneself how they would
>>>> react if while feeling lost trying to learn a new language and
>>>> environment, the menus for the environment suddenly changed after  
>>>> an
>>>> update. Or their potential confusion when the environment doesn't
>>>> match all the existing tutorials.
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>> BTW: this is Smalltalk and not SmallTalk
>>>
>>>> I once worked at a company where we were growing so fast, every day
>>>> I went to work, the office walls had moved. I started to have  
>>>> dreams
>>>> about falling asleep at my desk and waking up to find my office  
>>>> door
>>>> replaced by a wall. The growth was exciting because it was a sign  
>>>> of
>>>> our success but it definitely made life difficult for new  
>>>> employees.
>>>> This is Pharo at the moment.
>>>
>>> :)
>>> Good.!
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with  
>>>>> the new
>>>>> browser of david and the clean menu.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, when it is released and stable it would be better. But it is
>>>> neither at present.
>>>
>>> It depends what you call stable :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Taun
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "David Mitchell" <david.mitchell at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion"
>>>> <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:34:23 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada  
>>>> Eastern
>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Stef,
>>>>
>>>> I moved my production code to Pharo last month and I've had no  
>>>> issue
>>>> reports.
>>>>
>>>> I've loaded Seaside, MySql, and my own code.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:36 AM, stephane ducasse
>>>> <stephane.ducasse at free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2008, at 3:17 PM, Taun wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the real point Philippe made is a good one. It is not  
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> Squeak/Smalltalk community to point a new user to an alpha
>>>>>> product. The new
>>>>>> user should be pointed to a stable functional platform so they  
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> concentrate on learning the language not the platform bugs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Come on we are a good group of people using pharo daily and it has
>>>>> less bugs
>>>>> than squeak.
>>>>> I know since I harvested the fixes.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Philippe's example of breakage was an example for why Pharo might
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>> good for Sergio.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that this is not true.
>>>>> Do you think that a newcomer is not overhlem by the squeak menu!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As an additional example, I was using Pharo the other day and  
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> testing one of my models, I discovered #timesRepeat: was broken.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be really amazed that timesRepeat: would be broken in  
>>>>> pharo.
>>>>> Can you tell us, which version and how to reproduce that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Imagine Sergio running some simple sample code loops and getting
>>>>>> the wrong
>>>>>> answer. What is that going to do to his newly forming opinion of
>>>>>> Squeak?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, these are not criticisms of Pharo, simply reasons why  
>>>>>> Pharo
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> not be the right tool for a beginning Squeak/Seaside user.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would argue the inverse: Take soon the one click image with  
>>>>> the new
>>>>> browser of david and the clean menu.
>>>>> Pharo will have much more tests than any squeak distro.
>>>>> Pharo contains far less broken code than 3.9 or 3.10.
>>>>>
>>>>> After the point is that we are working on it so when you update  
>>>>> you
>>>>> can get
>>>>> some glitches.
>>>>> But even with that I think that this is better than 3.9.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Taun
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Adrian Lienhard" <adi at netstyle.ch>
>>>>>> To: "Seaside - general discussion" <seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:45:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
>>>>>> Eastern
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Seaside] how much introduction?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pharo currently is in alpha, so its surprising you expect it to  
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> free of bugs. We are making a lot of progress, so sometimes a  
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> breaks some unexpected functionality. Usually, though, this is  
>>>>>> fixed
>>>>>> within few days. We will soon go to beta and then produce a  
>>>>>> release
>>>>>> that is going to be maintained. That's where you can expect
>>>>>> stability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adrian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 17:25 , Philippe Marschall wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2008/10/27 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse at free.fr>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi sergio
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> when you will be fit on the syntax and the environment. I  
>>>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>>>> you to
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> the pharo image since it is really starting to get cleaner and
>>>>>>>> cleaner.
>>>>>>>> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't want to bash any of you but I have had some really bad
>>>>>>> experiences with Pharo. Stuff like ClassBuilder exploding in my
>>>>>>> face
>>>>>>> and OmniBrowser not working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Philippe
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> seaside mailing list
>>>>>>> seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> seaside
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> seaside mailing list
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>>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>>>>> seaside
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> seaside at lists.squeakfoundation.org
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Marcus Denker  --  denker at iam.unibe.ch
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>
>
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